Most effective sniper of World War 2?

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Timo
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#16

Post by Timo » 02 Mar 2003, 17:34

Gefreiter Matthäus Hetzenauer
Geboren am 23.12.1924 in Brixen im Thale (Tirol)
Ritterkreuz am 17.04.1945 als Scharfschütze im 7./GebJägRgt 144

345 confirmed kills. He was the no.1 sniper in the German army.

About König/Thorwald:
- No SS officer König or Thorwald, combined with the correct rank is listed who could be him (wrong units)
- No SS major (Sturmbannführer) König or Thorwald is listed in the Volksbund database
- No SS member named König or Thorwald received the Ritterkreuz or the DKiG. If he wasn't fictional, he would have won one of them given his 400+ score

Just my 2 cents,
Timo

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Daniel L
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#17

Post by Daniel L » 02 Mar 2003, 17:41

If you mean there was no Scharfschützenkp. or something with 6.Armee.. I don´t know. Snipers were organized in a much lower unit scale and were present in all formations.
No that is not what I mean. I'm basing my standpoint on Hans Wijers who has done extensive research on Stalingrad, he also has very good contact with many veterans.

The interview that you quote was made by Hans Widhofner and was published in Truppendienst 1967.
Concerning the skill needed to be a sniper I obviously don´t rate them as high as you. But I guess this is a personal view. I am a very good shooter as many people are in a army of millions. Give him a good rifle and a good training and he is a sniper. I don´t agree with the common view of the "unique, lonesome, super cool sniper elite soldier".


Neither do I agree with that view.
He needs knowledge in hiding, camouflaging and a lot, lot, lot of patience. And of course a calm hand in battle.


This was some of the things I thought you had left out so basically we have the same view.

Best regards/ Daniel


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Christoph Awender
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#18

Post by Christoph Awender » 02 Mar 2003, 18:12

So Hans Wijers says there was no soldier with a rifle and a scope deployed as sniper in Stalingrad?

Well, Hans Wijers is a great historian and has definately more knowledge than me about Stalingrad but I have troubles to believe that. Ten thousands of soldiers in Stalingrad and not one with a scope rifle?
And why should exactly these divisions is Stalingrad be an exception from the normal habbits... 2 of them in each platoon?

The normal sniper training course was 2 weeks á 50 hours. Every artillery gunner received more training so this is my point with that sniper elites.

\Christoph

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Daniel L
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#19

Post by Daniel L » 02 Mar 2003, 18:48

Well there's a difference between snipers and snipers. Surely there were many men with sniper rifles and no real sniper training but I don't think that there were many at battalion level. According to him most snipers employed were locally rallied russians.

Two weeks, don't you mean months? I've heard two and six months but never two weeks.

Best regards/ Daniel
Last edited by Daniel L on 02 Mar 2003, 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Christoph Awender
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#20

Post by Christoph Awender » 02 Mar 2003, 18:51

So you and Hans say that there were no "real" snipers in Stalingrad?

Real means those who attended the Seetaler Alpe course?
How can veterans differ between just soldiers with scope rifles and scope rifle gunners with the training on Seetaler Alpe?

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Daniel L
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#21

Post by Daniel L » 02 Mar 2003, 18:59

I might be mistaken myself but that is what he said, exceptions surely existed.

Best regards/ Daniel

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Christoph Awender
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#22

Post by Christoph Awender » 02 Mar 2003, 19:09

Did you read the two weeks training schedule for a sniper in the Waffen-SS document we discussed a few weeks ago?

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Daniel L
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#23

Post by Daniel L » 02 Mar 2003, 19:17

Yes I did but that document is only a suggestion (Vorschlag) so we don't know if the training ever was done in two weeks. Besides that it's a document about the training within the Waffen SS and thus you can't tell if it's the 'normal' training.

Best regards/ Daniel

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Christoph Awender
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#24

Post by Christoph Awender » 02 Mar 2003, 19:43

Yes it is a Vorschlag but when you read the other documents they speak about that the snipers should get more "value" in tactics and be deployed more often. One of the documents says that it is urgently necessary to deploy two snipers per platoon and the training should get more attention than until now in the german "Heer".

Reading this I think that it would be not logical to minimize the training from two months as you say to two weeks (even if it is just a proposal).
And also if it is just a proposal the "final" training version would not differ that much from the proposal... for example two weeks proposed and 2 months really.
I think that the proposal can of course be taken as a reference although the final version could differ slightly.
Please, what will you teach a soldier for two months?? Sniping is not medicine. It is just shooting under certain circumstances.

And do you really think that the W-SS and Heer training differed that much?
- But I guess we have too different views to agree in this topic- :)

\Christoph

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Daniel L
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#25

Post by Daniel L » 02 Mar 2003, 20:17

The sniper training at Seetaler- Alpe lasted for two months. I guess there were different types of sniper training programmes, the one that you talk about seem to be a programme for snipers within the platoon or company and not the type of high quality training that was given to the snipers at battalion level. What I'm saying is that we can't take this document as a standard example of sniper training, especially when we have other texts, interviews etc that speaks of the opposite. I'm sure the different results between two months and two weeks were notable.

Best regards/ Daniel

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Christoph Awender
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#26

Post by Christoph Awender » 02 Mar 2003, 20:40

Where did you read that it was two months?

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Daniel L
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#27

Post by Daniel L » 02 Mar 2003, 21:19

In the book Scharfschützen- Schiesstechnik by S.F. Hübner.

Best regards/ Daniel

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Silviu
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Most effective sniper of World War 2?

#28

Post by Silviu » 03 Mar 2003, 01:47

Dear all,


Please check this link about snipers in history. Many answers and corrections of your ideas are here.

http://www.snipercountry.com/sniphistory.htm



Silviu

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Daniel L
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#29

Post by Daniel L » 03 Mar 2003, 02:23

The German sniper's rifle is actually at the Stalingrad museum. Wether it is a propaganda stunt or not I don't know but wouldn't it be possible to trace back its owner from the serial number?

Best regards/ Daniel

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#30

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 03 Mar 2003, 05:40

Z aytsev Vasiliy Grigor'evich - sniper of the 1047th rifle regiment 284th rifle division, 62nd army, Stalingrad Front. Junior Lieutenant.
He was born on 23 March 1915 in the village Yelino of the now Agapovskeyeo region of Chelyabinskaya district in the family of peasant. Russian Member OF CPSU - COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE SOVIET UNION from 1943. Zaytsev finished Construction- Technical college in Magnitogorsk. From – 1936 – he is in the Soviet Navy. Graduated from War Economy school. War found Zaytsev in the post of the chief of financial department of the Pacific fleet, in Preobrazhenskoe bay.

In combat from September 1942.Sniper rifle obtained from the hands of commander its 1047th the regiment Metelev, one month later, together with the medal “For courage” By that time from simple “3-liner” Zaytsev already killed 32 Hitlerites. During the period from 10of November through 17 of December, 1942, in combat for Stalingrad he destroyed 225 enemy soldiers and officers including - 11 snipers .He also trained 28 Soviet sniper Some time in January of 1943 Zaytsev was heavily injured. His sight was saved by professor Filatov in the Moscow hospital.

He became Hero of the Soviet Union with the presentation of the Order of Lenin and medal on 22 February, 1943.

Zaytsev returned to the front in the March of 1943 He finished war on the Dniester in the rank of captain. During the war Zaytsev wrote two textbooks for the snipers, and also did invent still used, until now, method of sniper hunting by “sixes” when one and the same zone of battle is overlapped by fire three pairs of snipers (pointers and observer).

He was demobilized after war. He worked as the director of the Kiev Machine Building Plant. Zaytsev passed away on 15 December, 1991.

So much for the poor untrained conscript image of” Enemy at the Gates."

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