Hello Z!
A book recommendation for you so that you can read a historically correct and academic work on this subject: Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, PhD: The occult roots of Nazism - Secret Aryan cults and their influence on Nazi Ideology (1985). This book is still in print and quite easy to find... Read it because there is so much RUBBISH out there when it comes to this subject!
Regards,
Krollspell
Third Reich Occultism
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PropCollector
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Dieter,Dieter Zinke wrote:You should better search in another forum about occultismus.
I don' t think that a serious forum as ours will discuss these devious matters here
DZ
You will never hear me say that occultism was an >important< subject for the Thirth Reich leaders, but occultism WAS a theme for at least some of them. Also the allies made use of everything they (thought) to know about "strange interests" of the nazi leaders in their anti-nazi propaganda. Alone for this it IS a theme that could be briefly discussed in this forum.
So I mean to say that pushing the theme aside, like you did in your reply, is not completly correct.
Hans.
Propaganda leaflets of WW2
http://members.home.nl/ww2propaganda/
thanks guys. I will certainly check out that book reccomendation. I realize that the occult interests of Hitler were not a huge part of the military history of the war, but he was very interested in the subject and did dedicate some war resources to the subject. I am writing a story for one of my college classes. It is based on actual WW 2 battles, but the protagonist is purely fictional. Before I send it in I was going to have some of my friends proofread it. If any of u would like to read it and give some proof reading ideas let me know and I can email it to you.
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Wars and Empires
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Do you have any proof of this? Apart from Himmler and a few others' well documented fascination with germanic runes, bizarre “Aryan” mythology, etc, and the Nazi's propaganda attempts (an effort of Himmler’s, I believe) in trying to create a glorious past that never actually existed, I've not been able to find any proof that any real interest was ever taken in the occult, much less that any resources would have been diverted away from the war for it.but he was very interested in the subject and did dedicate some war resources to the subject.
Regards
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Panzermahn
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In the 30s, the SS sponsored several expeditions to Tibet, Antartica no doubt influenced by the occultic teachings..Wars and Empires wrote:Do you have any proof of this? Apart from Himmler and a few others' well documented fascination with germanic runes, bizarre “Aryan” mythology, etc, and the Nazi's propaganda attempts (an effort of Himmler’s, I believe) in trying to create a glorious past that never actually existed, I've not been able to find any proof that any real interest was ever taken in the occult, much less that any resources would have been diverted away from the war for it.but he was very interested in the subject and did dedicate some war resources to the subject.
Regards
Regards
Panzermahn
I have read several articles and one booke about Hitler and the Thule society. Obviously, no one but Hitler and his confidants during the war can ever know the real truth about what went on buy one can make logical assupmtions that the occult played a major role in Hitler's life. In fact lets just look at Hitler from a psycological point of view. He tried to create a New World Order, he murdered millions, surrounded himself with subservients, and was enthralled with creating a super race. One has to believe he was some what influenced if not an open believer in the occult and related fields. I know for a fact the SS had created a division dedicated to research Germanic heritage and finding religious artificats of value.
However, there has been so much scrutiny and so much written on WW2 that is sometimes tough to discern historical fact and the author's assumptions so maybe the literary pieces are read were not 100% accurate.
However, there has been so much scrutiny and so much written on WW2 that is sometimes tough to discern historical fact and the author's assumptions so maybe the literary pieces are read were not 100% accurate.
Not wanting to hijack the thread but on the subject of Thule.
I posted this query sometime back. Can anyone assist?
I posted this query sometime back. Can anyone assist?
PI am searching for a quote from Giordano Bruno that was used by the Thule Society and early National Socialist elements for propaganda means.
It is similar to:
"O' Job let the Germans know their strength and they shall be not men but gods."
I cannot recall the exact wording and I cannot re locate the quote in any Bruno's texts that I have access to.
I am searching for the exact wording and reference.
Any one assist?
Regards
P
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OldShatterhand
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Re: Occult and Hitler
Hi. I can give you some informations about this subject, but if you are writing a book this won´t be enough.
There was also another room called Walhalla.Funeral ceremonies and other rites took place here.This was the heart of the occult.Witch rites, meditation, scientific and philosophical researches took place here.In the middle was a round table where the 12 Gruppen Fuhrers and Himmler sat.They were following the example of King Artur.Under the influence of stange drugs and meditation they pronounced the names of runes till they reached the pure germanic nature.
It is not much, but it is a subject that can`t be found in normal history books.
Yes.It was created in castle Wewelburg and it was called Ahnenerbe.Their goal was to discover scientific, historical and archaeological evidences of their Aryan roots.In this castle was a place called GruppenFuhrersall.12 columns were in this place and a solar wheel with 12 rays in the middle.Rays were having shape of rune Sieg.There was gathering 12 Gruppen Fuhrers and Himmler.No need to tell that they had to prove their purity of blood.1. Did Hitler create an SS branch specifically to research the occult? What was its name?
There was also another room called Walhalla.Funeral ceremonies and other rites took place here.This was the heart of the occult.Witch rites, meditation, scientific and philosophical researches took place here.In the middle was a round table where the 12 Gruppen Fuhrers and Himmler sat.They were following the example of King Artur.Under the influence of stange drugs and meditation they pronounced the names of runes till they reached the pure germanic nature.
Yes.He created all this.He wanted to set up the spiritual structure that would contribute to their New World Order.He also had interest in witchcraft and belived that one of his ancestors was a witch.Than he was talking about milion of Aryans, that were killed by Jews and Chistrians only becouse of their pagan religion and wanted to bring the old religion back.2. Was Himmler involved with the occult research?
None ( I think).In January 1919 a new party was founded.It was called Deutsche Arbeit Partei and his founder was Anton Dexler a mebmer of Thule.12. September 1919 a war veteran and a police spy joined the party and soon he took it over.This man was Adolf Hitler.But a lot of Thule members became members of the NSDAP.3. What was Hitler’s role in the Thule Society?
Antartica, South America, Nord Africa, Tibet and also in Europe.They were looking for evidences about existence of Aryans, who were belived to be the inhabitants of Atlantis and after the great race war, they displaced roun the globe.The Ark of the Covenant, spear that pierced the side of Jesus and of course the Holy Gaal, were just few of the artifacts they were looking for.The Holy Grall was searched at Montsegur,40 km from Rennes Le Chateau in France.In Egipt Neumann-Sylkow and Von Ravenstein led a net of spies, behind the enemy lines with intention to sneak into the Keops`s pyramid.They were convinced, that "Books of Thoth" are in it and they are a evidence of an acient civilization that was before Egyptians and were the real builders of the pyramids.If they found anything it is not known.4. Where did he look for religious artifacts? Did he look in Africa?
I realy don`t know this one, but I think his firt name was Bruno.5. Who was the main Nazi doctor? Did he perform experiments on patients for the occult?
It is not much, but it is a subject that can`t be found in normal history books.
OldShatterhand: perhaps you are referring to Bruno Beger who was an anthropologist and - to my knowledge - not a medical doctor. He, together with Ernst Schäfer and few others went to Tibet for a research and (according to some claims) spy mission, in order to infiltrate the Tibetan government.
On the other hand, there was no such a person as "main Nazi doctor". Perhaps medical leaders and consultants of both the SS and SA are the nearest choices. Himmler's closest medical advisor was his masseur Felix Kerstein who in fact was not a trained doctor but a "man of people" with some special skills in natural medicine and massage. He was able to ease Himmler's abdominal pains and thus enjoyed a remarkable position in his closest circle.
On the other hand, there was no such a person as "main Nazi doctor". Perhaps medical leaders and consultants of both the SS and SA are the nearest choices. Himmler's closest medical advisor was his masseur Felix Kerstein who in fact was not a trained doctor but a "man of people" with some special skills in natural medicine and massage. He was able to ease Himmler's abdominal pains and thus enjoyed a remarkable position in his closest circle.
SERIOUS ?
Error, this is no devious matters but a very serious subject. Hitler was fed with occultism from 1906 in Vienna when he was dabbling into Ostara http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/reichbis/hitler3.html until 1933 when he was hooked to occultist Erik Hanussen http://www.steinschneider.com/biography ... en_bio.htm.Dieter Zinke wrote:You should better search in another forum about occultismus.
I don' t think that a serious forum as ours will discuss these devious matters here
DZ
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michael mills
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I think the problem here is in the use of the word "occult".
According to my dictionary, the meaning of "occult" is "involving the supernatural, mystical, magical".
Obviously there was nothing "supernatural" or "magical" about National Socialist racial beliefs, or the belief in an Aryan race. Although modern research into human genetics has shown that beliefs in the existence of various pure races are not scientifically based, such beliefs were quite rational in the 19th century when they came into being. They were based on the then available scientific knowledge, derived from the findings of physical anthropology using measurable criteria such as head-shape, eye and hair colour etc.
The "occult" involves a belief in supernatural forces and magic. Carrying out research into the ancient history of the Germanic tribes, or sending expeditions to Tibet to discover traces of ancient "Aryan" inhabitants may be the result of ideological enthusiasm with little scientific basis, but it is not an example of a belief in supernatural phenomena or magic.
Similar dubious historical enthusiasms exist even today. For example, I recently attended a series of lectures on the Silk Road and the ancient civilisations of Central Asia. One of the topics dealt with was the discovery of mummies of very tall people with red hair at an oasis in Xinjiang. A number of persons attending the course jumped to the conclusion that this was evidence of the presence of "Ancient Celts" in the region, a belief based on no scientific foundation apart from the supposition that men with a height of two metres and red hair must necessarily be of "Celtic" origin.
The ideas expressed by my fellow course-participants were similar in nature to the National Socialist belief in the existence of an "Aryan race", and remnants of it in Tibet. Those ideas may be historically erroneous, but they are by no means examples of the "occult". They are rational ideas, but incorrect because based on faulty premisses.
According to my dictionary, the meaning of "occult" is "involving the supernatural, mystical, magical".
Obviously there was nothing "supernatural" or "magical" about National Socialist racial beliefs, or the belief in an Aryan race. Although modern research into human genetics has shown that beliefs in the existence of various pure races are not scientifically based, such beliefs were quite rational in the 19th century when they came into being. They were based on the then available scientific knowledge, derived from the findings of physical anthropology using measurable criteria such as head-shape, eye and hair colour etc.
The "occult" involves a belief in supernatural forces and magic. Carrying out research into the ancient history of the Germanic tribes, or sending expeditions to Tibet to discover traces of ancient "Aryan" inhabitants may be the result of ideological enthusiasm with little scientific basis, but it is not an example of a belief in supernatural phenomena or magic.
Similar dubious historical enthusiasms exist even today. For example, I recently attended a series of lectures on the Silk Road and the ancient civilisations of Central Asia. One of the topics dealt with was the discovery of mummies of very tall people with red hair at an oasis in Xinjiang. A number of persons attending the course jumped to the conclusion that this was evidence of the presence of "Ancient Celts" in the region, a belief based on no scientific foundation apart from the supposition that men with a height of two metres and red hair must necessarily be of "Celtic" origin.
The ideas expressed by my fellow course-participants were similar in nature to the National Socialist belief in the existence of an "Aryan race", and remnants of it in Tibet. Those ideas may be historically erroneous, but they are by no means examples of the "occult". They are rational ideas, but incorrect because based on faulty premisses.
What Michael Mills says is to some extent true, but I think he falls well short of defining the term "occult".
Works on German mythology of the 1930s, by Professor Schilling, for example, who wrote articles on the subject for the SS journal "Das Schwarze Korps" explain that the Nazi swastika was based on the Aryan symbol 4,000 years earlier which represented the Sun as godhead. Professor Schilling in his book "Germanisches Leben" (Koehler & Amelang, Leipzig, 1936) states that, continuing the tradition of the Aryan ancestors, National Socialism is a cult of the sun, and the swastika is its symbol.
Since the swastika as sun symbol should be yellow or gold, but is black, it may represent the black sun of German mythology. The black sun illuminates Thule/Hyperborea, which is the lost land of the Underworld inhabited by "occult" supermen with whom it was the purpose of the Thule Society to re-establish contact.
The Nazis thus probably believed that this other world exists, and if it does, they may know something about it. In that case, their knowledge would be "occult", for it is information not available to, and not believed in, by science or the world at large.
(The Nazi cult of the sun was something of a secret in the northern hemisphere although the fantastic "Sonnenwendfeir" (solstice festivities) of Argentine Nazis from 1933 onwards, straight out of German mythology and orchestrated by SS-Brigadefuehrer Baron Edmund von Thermann, German ambassador to Argentina 1933-1941, are well described in Professor Newton's tome "The Nazi Menace in Argentina, 1931-1945 (Stanford University Press, 1992)
In pursuing the meaning of the word "occult" one has to consider whether the medium in a trance, or possessed by a spirit, is engaging in an "occult" activity. August Kubizek, the only friend of Hitler in his youth between 1904-1908, described in "Adolf Hitler Mein Jugendfreund" (Stocker Verlag, 1956) the incident on the Freinberg mountain at Linz in 1905 when he observed what appeared to be "a second Ego" speak through Adolf Hitler. Hitler claimed afterwards that it was "...in that hour that it began".
Rudolf Hess stated in a radio broadcast in 1934 that "Higher Forces operate through Adolf Hitler in the fulfilment of Destiny," (quoted in Konrad Heiden: Der Fuehrer, 1944): Himmler told his masseur Felix Kersten the same thing, and the Swiss psychologist C J Jung, who made numerous observations of Hitler pre-war remarked: "Hitler presents the appearance of a robot, one would say a Double, in whose interior the man Hitler was hiding as an appendix, careful not to interfere with the mechanism."
I think another good description of the phenomenon, from a modern Argentine writer, is: "Hitler was possessed by two egos. The original everyday Ego in occupation of the body was Adolf Hitler, the pacifist socialist who liked architecture and painting: the second Ego who joined in possession with the first was a spirit whom we know as Der Fuehrer."
Is this "occult"? Would information obtained through a higher spirit possessing a body be considered "occult"? Is a man possessed by a supernumerary spirit "occult"?
I do not profess to have the answer to that question and I doubt if it is possible to lay down the rule because we can never be sure of the mechanism, nor know what the purpose of the second Ego was. Simply because the Reich leader was manipulated by a higher spirit does not mean necessarily that the nationalist aims of that nation were being worked for by the spirit inhabiting him: it may be that "a world in flames" was its legitimate objective on the higher level, and for purposes impossible to comprehend towards an ultimate spiritual goal. The purpose of human sacrifice in past ages has never been explained but might be significant here.
The same Argentine source quoted several paragraphs above stated that the purpose of the pact between the higher forces and Adolf Hitler was to provoke a vast bloodbath as a sacrifice and an expiation of humanity's crimes. A world cataclysm in the opening decade of the 21st century would be reduced by a vast sacrifice: the underlying aim of a global National Socialism to create the New Man would be granted at a future time.
Works on German mythology of the 1930s, by Professor Schilling, for example, who wrote articles on the subject for the SS journal "Das Schwarze Korps" explain that the Nazi swastika was based on the Aryan symbol 4,000 years earlier which represented the Sun as godhead. Professor Schilling in his book "Germanisches Leben" (Koehler & Amelang, Leipzig, 1936) states that, continuing the tradition of the Aryan ancestors, National Socialism is a cult of the sun, and the swastika is its symbol.
Since the swastika as sun symbol should be yellow or gold, but is black, it may represent the black sun of German mythology. The black sun illuminates Thule/Hyperborea, which is the lost land of the Underworld inhabited by "occult" supermen with whom it was the purpose of the Thule Society to re-establish contact.
The Nazis thus probably believed that this other world exists, and if it does, they may know something about it. In that case, their knowledge would be "occult", for it is information not available to, and not believed in, by science or the world at large.
(The Nazi cult of the sun was something of a secret in the northern hemisphere although the fantastic "Sonnenwendfeir" (solstice festivities) of Argentine Nazis from 1933 onwards, straight out of German mythology and orchestrated by SS-Brigadefuehrer Baron Edmund von Thermann, German ambassador to Argentina 1933-1941, are well described in Professor Newton's tome "The Nazi Menace in Argentina, 1931-1945 (Stanford University Press, 1992)
In pursuing the meaning of the word "occult" one has to consider whether the medium in a trance, or possessed by a spirit, is engaging in an "occult" activity. August Kubizek, the only friend of Hitler in his youth between 1904-1908, described in "Adolf Hitler Mein Jugendfreund" (Stocker Verlag, 1956) the incident on the Freinberg mountain at Linz in 1905 when he observed what appeared to be "a second Ego" speak through Adolf Hitler. Hitler claimed afterwards that it was "...in that hour that it began".
Rudolf Hess stated in a radio broadcast in 1934 that "Higher Forces operate through Adolf Hitler in the fulfilment of Destiny," (quoted in Konrad Heiden: Der Fuehrer, 1944): Himmler told his masseur Felix Kersten the same thing, and the Swiss psychologist C J Jung, who made numerous observations of Hitler pre-war remarked: "Hitler presents the appearance of a robot, one would say a Double, in whose interior the man Hitler was hiding as an appendix, careful not to interfere with the mechanism."
I think another good description of the phenomenon, from a modern Argentine writer, is: "Hitler was possessed by two egos. The original everyday Ego in occupation of the body was Adolf Hitler, the pacifist socialist who liked architecture and painting: the second Ego who joined in possession with the first was a spirit whom we know as Der Fuehrer."
Is this "occult"? Would information obtained through a higher spirit possessing a body be considered "occult"? Is a man possessed by a supernumerary spirit "occult"?
I do not profess to have the answer to that question and I doubt if it is possible to lay down the rule because we can never be sure of the mechanism, nor know what the purpose of the second Ego was. Simply because the Reich leader was manipulated by a higher spirit does not mean necessarily that the nationalist aims of that nation were being worked for by the spirit inhabiting him: it may be that "a world in flames" was its legitimate objective on the higher level, and for purposes impossible to comprehend towards an ultimate spiritual goal. The purpose of human sacrifice in past ages has never been explained but might be significant here.
The same Argentine source quoted several paragraphs above stated that the purpose of the pact between the higher forces and Adolf Hitler was to provoke a vast bloodbath as a sacrifice and an expiation of humanity's crimes. A world cataclysm in the opening decade of the 21st century would be reduced by a vast sacrifice: the underlying aim of a global National Socialism to create the New Man would be granted at a future time.
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British Sapper
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