Relations between French Civilians and German forces

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seaburn
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Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#1

Post by seaburn » 07 Nov 2014, 00:14

(1) Can anyone enlighten me about the billeting of German forces in civilian houses in France during the occupation. Were houses forcibly requestioned in the main or did families elect to have 'paying' guests? I have the impression that large houses would have been requestioned by Officers and families moved out, but for the regular troops was this the case or not ?. I have read accounts of soldiers and their hosts being on very friendly terms - which gives the impression that their stay was of mutual benefit. But I have no real insight into this - I'm left wondering if the Soldier was unaware of the families reluctance to have them there and is looking back with rosy tinted glasses !

(2) How soon after the war did German people feel comfortable visiting France as tourists? There must have been sever animosity against their presence for some time, but my perception is that relations between the two countries warmed up a lot quicker than one would have imagined in spite on the obvious tensions the war caused between them. I would presume the new threat of the Soviets brought the governments of the two countries together on a political level, but how soon did these new friendlier relations trickle down to the general public? Would there be still animosity to Germans today from the younger generation ?

(hopefully this is in the right thread, please move if not)

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#2

Post by Ghjuvan » 28 Nov 2014, 20:03

Hi,
I think it depends on german needs. My mother-in-law's family was living in Quimperlé (Occupied zone, Brittany) and they had to give a half of their house to german officers.(he was a mill worker, she washed clothes) They were not pleased at all, but they recogenized that german officers were "korrekt'. Sometimes she abused them when they came into her house with dirty boots, or when they did not switch off the lights.... The officers had an alsatian batman, mobilized, who was "a good guy"....But yes, they were occupiers...


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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#3

Post by seaburn » 28 Nov 2014, 20:13

Thank you for posting reply Ghjuvan, can I ask, did they get paid for accommodating them or were they 'guests' of your in-laws ?

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#4

Post by Ghjuvan » 29 Nov 2014, 17:43

I don't know, rhey are dead now, my mother-in-law too. Normally, French Vichy governement paid some money for that. If you read French, there is a note about requisitions in Saumur /
http://saumur-jadis.pagesperso-orange.f ... itions.htm

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#5

Post by Bernaschek » 09 Dec 2014, 16:05

My brother, who was an international lorry driver about 10 years ago said, that as an Austrian you are still treated better than a German in France - especially away from touristy areas. He drove a lot to France for a while.
"nuts"

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#6

Post by Sarge3525 » 09 Jan 2015, 14:53

seaburn wrote: (2) How soon after the war did German people feel comfortable visiting France as tourists? There must have been sever animosity against their presence for some time, but my perception is that relations between the two countries warmed up a lot quicker than one would have imagined in spite on the obvious tensions the war caused between them. I would presume the new threat of the Soviets brought the governments of the two countries together on a political level, but how soon did these new friendlier relations trickle down to the general public? Would there be still animosity to Germans today from the younger generation ?
I have heard from many Germans that well until the 80s-90s, Germans were disliked by the old generation.
And by old generation I mean those who lived through WW2, BUT ALSO (peculiarly) the generation which did not live the war and which was born after the war (baby boomers). Possibly they were "bred" with the culture of disliking Germans thanks to their parents. This sentiment was not uniform across France and I have heard that in Alsace this was strongest aswell as Normandy.

The boche word is still used today in France, aswell as "Schleu", "Fritz", etc...But I think just as a standard word without too much connotations. The French tend to see others outside France as "the others" kind of like the Romans saw anybody outside Rome as "the others", and its part of the national character.

The French often see themselves as unique people, and although now the war is long forgotten, this sentiment remains even among the young generation. But the difference is that IMO it is not hateful anymore. It is more like "We have the best Food, other Food is not that good", "We have the best land", etc. But in a cute prideful way.

The hate of the Germans by the post-war generation was more due to ignorance (not speaking German, not travelling to Germany) than experience of WW2. This is similar in Netherlands and other such countries with Germanophobia.
This is different from the true Chauvinistic behavior of the WW1 generation and WW2 generation, which actually fought Germans and/or lived through that period of intense irredentism ("We have to extend France to the Rhine", etc).

All in all...
I think that the Internet, the EU, and globalization...Have truly changed the way we think and that includes the French.
As a generation Y I see myself drastically different from the generation of my fathers, and I cannot feel chauvinistic dislike of any other European nation. And this is purely because I have travelled through Europe, spoken their language, and am open-minded.

Being open-minded was not typical in Europe before the internet & computers and the EU.
Sorry for my long post, but I love this topic. Its a very interesting one (The European psyche) and highly interests me as a Modern European.

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#7

Post by seaburn » 09 Jan 2015, 16:07

Thanks for posting and welcome to the forum :welcome:

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#8

Post by Avyy » 13 Jan 2015, 07:30

seaburn wrote:(1) !

(2) How soon after the war did German people feel comfortable visiting France as tourists? There must have been sever animosity against their presence for some time, but my perception is that relations between the two countries warmed up a lot quicker than one would have imagined in spite on the obvious tensions the war caused between them. Would there be still animosity to Germans today from the younger generation ?

(hopefully this is in the right thread, please move if not)
have heard from many Germans that well until the 80s-90s, Germans were disliked by the old generation.
I don't have much to offer to this forum as adding input, though I can give you this first hand account. :)

I have source from a German reactor between the years of 80's till today. I speak to him over phone and FB.

He told me he travels to US and Normandy too react as German soldiers with his german friends and US friends. In US they wear their german uniforms but however, whiling traveling to France to their distinction, they go under cover in french uniforms. They do this now because one year,traveling in German uniforms they were all spat a pond.

It may well be the german wwII uniforms that did it however, but I don't know how French treat visiting Germans.

Another source. I will post link later on. Its easly found on google search.

An wwII German soldier is happily living in Normandy with an French WWII soldier. They are both aware whom they are but the french soldier sees him as his great buddy.
TGIF. :)

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#9

Post by Avyy » 13 Jan 2015, 07:34

TGIF. :)

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#10

Post by Sheldrake » 13 Jan 2015, 13:14

1. French attitudes to WW2 are complicated. In 1940 a legitimate French Government signed an armistice with the Germans. Some French chose to fight on - from overseas or within France. Lots of other people got on with their lives.The Germans generally behaved very correctly. They paid for food, employed local staff and developed personal relations with the people they met. A French builder or farmer might find it hard not to do business with the occupiers. By 1945 everyone was either part of the Resistance (mostly "of 1944"), Free French or a Collaborator. After WW2, many people did not really want to revisit the details of that period of the past. The documentary The Sorrow and the Pity had a big impact because it was the first time collaboration had been explored seriously. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrow_and_the_Pity

2. Lots of Germans settled in France post WW2. Franz Goeckel, one of the defenders of WN 62 had a holiday home on Colleville close to Omaha beach. The allies were in Normandy four months: the Germans for four years.

3. One of the remarkable post war phenomena was the decision by France to lead the EEC and then the EU. The preamble to the Treaty of Rome is quite explicit. One purpose of the EU is to avoid future European wars. As part of this process the French have leant over backwards in the cuase of reconciliation. Three flags fly over Fort Douamont at Verdun: The Tricolour, the EU flag and the German National flag. The French established the Euro-Corps with the Germans. While there are French and German politicians complaining about immigration and assimilation,this is directed at immigration from outside the EU not historic invaders. There is no desire in either country to reverse the Shengen agreement.

4. There are parts of France, particularly near the areas where the SS fought the Partisans where the Germans are sill the "sal boche" but their reputation is about as bad as les Anglais, who have not been forgiven for the Hundred Years War in Mayenne!

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#11

Post by Sheldrake » 13 Jan 2015, 13:39

1. French attitudes to WW2 are complicated. In 1940 a legitimate French Government signed an armistice with the Germans. Some French chose to fight on - from overseas or within France. Lots of other people got on with their lives.The Germans generally behaved very correctly. They paid for food, employed local staff and developed personal relations with the people they met. A French builder or farmer might find it hard not to do business with the occupiers. By 1945 everyone was either part of the Resistance (mostly "of 1944"), Free French or a Collaborator. After WW2, many people did not really want to revisit the details of that period of the past. The documentary The Sorrow and the Pity had a big impact because it was the first time collaboration had been explored seriously. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrow_and_the_Pity

2. Lots of Germans settled in France post WW2. Franz Goeckel, one of the defenders of WN 62 had a holiday home on Colleville close to Omaha beach. The allies were in Normandy four months: the Germans for four years.

3. One of the remarkable post war phenomena was the decision by France to lead the EEC and then the EU. The preamble to the Treaty of Rome is quite explicit. One purpose of the EU is to avoid future European wars. As part of this process the French have leant over backwards in the cuase of reconciliation. Three flags fly over Fort Douamont at Verdun: The Tricolour, the EU flag and the German National flag. The French established the Euro-Corps with the Germans. While there are French and German politicians complaining about immigration and assimilation,this is directed at immigration from outside the EU not historic invaders. There is no desire in either country to reverse the Shengen agreement.

4. There are parts of France, particularly near the areas where the SS fought the Partisans where the Germans are sill the "sal boche" but their reputation is about as bad as les Anglais, who have not been forgiven for the Hundred Years War in Mayenne!

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#12

Post by seaburn » 13 Jan 2015, 19:31

Tks 'Avyy I would think that wearing a German Uniform in Normandy would be a tad provocative especially if they were WSS uniforms which re-enactors seem to love so much !

Sheldrake, you brought up the point I think I had in mind, the French and the Germans being the original lynchpins of the EEC - It gave me the impression that things on the Political front moved swiftly away from acrimony. I agree with your other assertions also, the reality of how the French and Germans got on in the main has probably not been portrayed very accurately in the past. Certainly the French have had to re-examine their view that they mainly resisted during the occupation. Although I know the French are extremely patriotic and would not have accepted the occupation without anger and resentment.

Your point on the English and French historic rivalry puts me in mind of a story my mother told me. In the late 1950s she and some friends visited northern France. An old man asked her if she spoke English (She thought that's what he said, but it retrospect, it must have been 'Are you English') when she said 'Yes' he became extremely angry and started waving his walking stick at her and chased her down the street, roaring obscenities ! I always thought that that reaction was a bit ungrateful, keeping in mind the sacrifice many English had made to free his country - but she maintained that the French had never forgiven the English for defeating Napoleon ! :D

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#13

Post by GregSingh » 14 Jan 2015, 00:13

One particular kind of "relations" was named by the French themselves as "Collaboration horizontale"... :D

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#14

Post by Sarge3525 » 16 Jan 2015, 12:38

What you have to understand about the French Germanophobia, is that it often has nothing to do with direct experience of "bad German behavior" during WW2 or WW1.

Most French who say something like "Sales boches", "Encore ces boches", (for example if they see holidaying Germans), etc...Say it without first hand experience of Germans.
This is especially true today or in 80s-00s (where nobody lived WW2 or WW1), but was true back then too.

The main reason is not some sort of experience, but IMO it is brain-conditioning due to propaganda. From 1870 and even before, the French state has conditioned the French population to see anything "over the Rhine" as disgusting, barbaric, something to be colonized and destroyed.
This propaganda was the strongest before, during, and after WW1, where people genuinely believed (without having seen a single German), that the Germans ate children, raped and crucified women on trees, etc. The "Hun" as it was called. Some kind of mad man who wasnt properly colonized by the Roman Empire and thus didnt fall under the Umbrella of "civilization". Even down to the German language itself...everything was demonized (German was seen as animalistic guttural language. Spoken by "German tribes" just like described by Tacitus the Roman Historian)

The power of this propaganda is especially apparent during the 1940 defeat of France.
All over France, there was a massive exodus of French civilians. Everybody left towns, villages, etc...in actual fear that the Germans were what I described above. I remember an interview where a French civilian said something along the lines of "We were so surprised when we saw the first German soldiers. They were not horrible. They were handsome men, who were kind, civilized, educated. So we went back to our villages/towns".

And beyond WW2 this was the same.
WW2 propaganda renewed the fear of the horrible German.
So in the French subconscious...The German was a figure of fear again.
This is why...Post WW2...Not even possibly having seen a German DURING THE WAR (except through hearsay), people would say "Ah les sales boches", "oh my God they are rebuilding their Army (Bundeswehr)", etc.

There is a strong psychological brainwashing set in the mentality of the French about the Germans.

Today the interesting thing is...
I think mostly it has disappeared in the "crude way" but is still there in another way.
There is still a psychological brainwashing of Germans being "not normal" like the French.
- Highly efficient. Not human.
- Not able to feel emotions. A machine.
- This is as opposed to "Human" Latin culture, with emotions, etc. So what if our economy is bad? We are not machines like Germans!

So...What seems like an admiration for the German model and economy...Is actually the same sort of dehumanizing of the Boche, as happened in the past, but in another format.

One more important point:
The English and many other Europeans are conditioned the same way.
I spoke with many English people who also (and even more so) stereotype the Germans.

I think it has to do with the fact that France, UK, governments...Were the STRONGEST in brainwashing their population with black propaganda.
The Germans even under the Nazis never dehumanized the French or English in that sort of way. The propaganda was there, but very different (focused on Jews or some other racist ideology. But the propaganda always wanted to turn the English&French to the German cause, not antagonize them as much)

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Re: Relations between French Civilians and German forces

#15

Post by Sarge3525 » 16 Jan 2015, 12:56

seaburn wrote:Tks 'Avyy I would think that wearing a German Uniform in Normandy would be a tad provocative especially if they were WSS uniforms which re-enactors seem to love so much !
It is provocative indeed!
But only if you consider that in the mindset that you shouldnt wear the uniform of the losing side. Just like someone dressed as Japanese Imperial soldier.

I say this because...Did the Germans including Waffen SS conduct a reign of oppression and terror in Normandy? For the most part I think very much not! The Germans essentially "lived" with the Normans, built their atlantic wall (with French paid labor), drank in Norman Taverns, and mostly did conduct themselves adequately (except for the few regrettable incidents).
It is maybe very controversial to say, but historically accurate, that the Allies killed more Normans in their bombings of towns, than the Germans ever did (shooting partisans/resistance members).

So the Norman "hatred" of Germans I think is very much a product of the social construct of post-WW2 propaganda and so on.
Sheldrake, you brought up the point I think I had in mind, the French and the Germans being the original lynchpins of the EEC - It gave me the impression that things on the Political front moved swiftly away from acrimony. I agree with your other assertions also, the reality of how the French and Germans got on in the main has probably not been portrayed very accurately in the past. Certainly the French have had to re-examine their view that they mainly resisted during the occupation. Although I know the French are extremely patriotic and would not have accepted the occupation without anger and resentment.
Simply put, the majority of French civilians did nothing because thats what normal human beings do. When your whole country is in a state of war, and you are a civilian, you will not amuse yourself by shooting at the occupier who is patrolling in your village. Knowing there will be repercussions on the whole population.
The resistants were for the most part either very young, or very politically motivated (from Nationalists to Communists). This doesnt represent the majority of the population of any country, which is apolitical and just wants to work and earn their bread.
Most French civilians disliked the Germans (thanks to the propaganda I talked about. You do not take out dozens of years of Anti-Boche propaganda out of the head of the French), but they tried to continue living.
By the same token, the people who openly yelled Heil Hitler and were pro-German, were extremely few.
Your point on the English and French historic rivalry puts me in mind of a story my mother told me. In the late 1950s she and some friends visited northern France. An old man asked her if she spoke English (She thought that's what he said, but it retrospect, it must have been 'Are you English') when she said 'Yes' he became extremely angry and started waving his walking stick at her and chased her down the street, roaring obscenities ! I always thought that that reaction was a bit ungrateful, keeping in mind the sacrifice many English had made to free his country - but she maintained that the French had never forgiven the English for defeating Napoleon ! :D
Probably it has to do with English/American bombings of the region.
Or it simply has to do with general French xenophobia.
This again shows one of the main illusions of post WW2: The ideal of a Norman/northern French population grateful to the Anglo-Americans for liberating them, and welcoming veterans across the board.

Whilst this is certainly true for many, it is untrue for others.
If you were a citizen of Caen or various other towns bombed by the Anglo-Americans, its very possible you see the German as more "adequate" (I dont say "positive" because a Frenchman will never say that :D) than the Anglo-Americans.

But fortunately/unfortunately, all this generation is dying, so all the feelings, good or bad, are dying with them. And new ones are arising.

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