Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

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sarahgoodson
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Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#1

Post by sarahgoodson » 14 Nov 2015, 15:17

There is overwhelming evidence that the Nazis saw the Slavs as racially inferior. Were the Slavs included as "non-Aryans" according to the Nuremberg Laws and discriminated against like Jews (extended to include "Gypsies, Negroes, and their bastards."), on the basis of their ancestry? Were Germans who had Slavic grandparents considered Mischlinge or "non-Aryan" stripped of their citizenship and forbid from having sexual relations and marriage with Germans?

Hitler in Mein Kampf wrote about Russia and the Slavs:
For the organization of a Russian state formation was not the result of the political abilities of the Slavs in Russia, but only a wonderful example of the state-forming efficacy of the German element in an inferior race.
And he also wrote about the previous attempts of Germanising the Poles:
Not only in Austria, however, but also in the Reich, these so-called national circles were, and still are, under the influence of similar erroneous ideas. Unfortunately, a policy towards Poland, whereby the East was to be Germanised, was demanded by many, and was based on the same false reasoning. Here, again, it was believed that the Polish people could be Germanised, by being compelled to use the German language. The result would have been [culturally] fatal. A people of foreign race would have had to use the German language to express modes of thought that were foreign to the German, thus compromising, by its own inferiority, the dignity and nobility of our nation.
Once the Nuremberg Laws were passed, did the Third Reich legally discriminate against those who had the "foreign race" of Poles in their ancestry? What about the Germans who had mixed Polish ancestry in places like Silesia? Was part German and part Polish ancestry or part German and part Czech frowned upon? What about the Sorbs and Kashubians?

During the war, Poles were forbidden from having sexual relations with Germans, hundreds of Polish men were hanged because of this, before the war, was such an action illegal?

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#2

Post by wm » 14 Nov 2015, 17:29

I don't know about Slaves but the Poles weren't discriminated against. They were protected by a German‑Polish agreement that protected both the Polish minority in Germany and the German in Poland.
One might even say they were privileged and more free than the Germans, this was because the Polish organizations in Germany were the only ones not controlled by the Nazis. Additionally they were partially excluded from various duties imposed on the "true" Germans, which took your time and weren't much fun too.
Of course there were lots of local problems in the last years before the war but generally it was like this.


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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#3

Post by sarahgoodson » 14 Nov 2015, 21:12

wm wrote:I don't know about Slaves but the Poles weren't discriminated against. They were protected by a German‑Polish agreement that protected both the Polish minority in Germany and the German in Poland.
One might even say they were privileged and more free than the Germans, this was because the Polish organizations in Germany were the only ones not controlled by the Nazis. Additionally they were partially excluded from various duties imposed on the "true" Germans, which took your time and weren't much fun too.
Of course there were lots of local problems in the last years before the war but generally it was like this.
But after the induction of the Nuremberg Laws, were Poles living in the Reich stripped of their citizenship or not? Were Poles considered to be racially related or racially foreign according to the race laws?

Poles are Slavs. Slavs not slaves.

What about after the Anschluss, were Austrians who had say Czech ancestry excluded from citizenship? What about the local populations in the annexed territories such as Poles, Ukrainians, Russians and others considered eligible for citizenship?

In the unpublished Second Book, Hitler wrote:
The National Socialist Movement, on the contrary, will always let its foreign policy be determined by the necessity to secure the space necessary to the life of our Folk. It knows no Germanising or Teutonising, as in the case of the national bourgeoisie, but only the spread of its own Folk. It will never see in the subjugated, so called Germanised, Czechs or Poles a national, let alone Folkish, strengthening, but only the racial weakening of our Folk.
And
The Folkish State, conversely, must under no conditions annex Poles with the intention of wanting to make Germans out of them some day. On the contrary, it must muster the determination either to seal off these alien racial elements, so that the blood of its own Folk will not be corrupted again, or it must without further ado remove them and hand over the vacated territory to its own National Comrades.
So were these racially foreign elements still allowed German citizenship?

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#4

Post by wm » 14 Nov 2015, 22:57

sarahgoodson wrote:But after the induction of the Nuremberg Laws, were Poles living in the Reich stripped of their citizenship or not?
They weren't. As far as I know the German Poles had (almost) the same rights as the Germans.
sarahgoodson wrote:Were Poles considered to be racially related or racially foreign according to the race laws?
The race laws were for the Jews, Romani and Blacks. The Poles were of related blood (artverwandten Blutes).
But they weren't the source of German blood - because of that they had less duties and less rights.
sarahgoodson wrote:What about after the Anschluss, were Austrians who had say Czech ancestry excluded from citizenship?
I don't think so, but I don't know for sure.
sarahgoodson wrote: What about the local populations in the annexed territories such as Poles, Ukrainians, Russians and others considered eligible for citizenship?
No.

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#5

Post by sarahgoodson » 14 Nov 2015, 23:43

wm wrote:They weren't. As far as I know the German Poles had (almost) the same rights as the Germans.
I thought Slavs were considered to be non-Aryans so since Poles are Slavs they also would have been excluded from citizenship?
The race laws were for the Jews, Romani and Blacks. The Poles were of related blood (artverwandten Blutes).
But they weren't the source of German blood - because of that they had less duties and less rights.
The Nazis considered Poles to be of related blood/Aryans? Yeah I know they weren't of German origin but the laws said citizenship was open to people of German or related blood, I thought the related blood concept was just other Germanic people?
I don't think so, but I don't know for sure.
Czechs were also considered to be of related blood and after the annexing of Austria, Austrians with Czech ancestry were still allowed to be Reich citizens.

For more info see "Non-Germans" Under the Third Reich, Diemut Majer, p.235-236
No.
But if they were considered to be of related blood, why were they not allowed?

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#6

Post by wm » 15 Nov 2015, 01:25

Before the WW2 the only "bad blood" was Jews, Romani and Blacks. The others were legit.

The Nazi weren't as bent on that blood thing as they are frequently portrayed. And there were contradictions and even arbitrariness.
I think it was like that, the Jews - it was a serious and well defined question, the rest was on the back burner - less well defined, and frequently arbitrary.

Additionally earlier, for many years Hitler was afraid of Poland, and couldn't afford any stupidity. The "subhuman" epithets really started flying fast and furious after Poland stood in the way of Hitler's plans in 1939.

Then the German Poles were asked to convert to/declare themselves Germans, and in the occupied territories various half-German/half-Poles and other "compound creatures" were allowed to converted to almost Germans. The rest became - the Poles. The Jews were told they were subhumans, the Poles weren't.

There were a rather large difference between what some obscure Nazi volumes on blood said, the Nazi plans, the laws, and what was happening on the ground.
I don't know much about the theory - what was in those volumes.

For example in Auschwitz the Poles had the status of privileged prisoners, they were better than the Russians and a few other groups of prisoners. So there were subhumans and subhumans. Bulgarian, Slovaks weren't subhumans at all - because they were allies.

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#7

Post by sarahgoodson » 15 Nov 2015, 06:13

wm wrote:Before the WW2 the only "bad blood" was Jews, Romani and Blacks. The others were legit.
So how come during the war the Slavs were also discriminated from a racial point of view? And as I have also shown, Hitler wrote in the 1920s his views of the Slavs who he viewed as racially inferior, he had since his days in Vienna (the Pan-Germans viewed the Jews and Slavs as racially inferior).

So according to the Nuremberg Laws, was sexual intercourse and marriages not forbidden between Germans and Slavs?
The Nazi weren't as bent on that blood thing as they are frequently portrayed. And there were contradictions and even arbitrariness.
I think it was like that, the Jews - it was a serious and well defined question, the rest was on the back burner - less well defined, and frequently arbitrary.
Indeed. I have read and own the book The Nazi Ancestral Proof Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution by Eric Ehrenreich and it clearly explains how the Nazis had problems with definitions of racial terms such as Aryan or Jew.

But where exactly were Slavs placed in the Nazis racial views?
Additionally earlier, for many years Hitler was afraid of Poland, and couldn't afford any stupidity. The "subhuman" epithets really started flying fast and furious after Poland stood in the way of Hitler's plans in 1939.
But weren't the Poles considered non-Aryan since they are Slavs? Publications that were public described them as subhumans after the war began, I'm unsure about whether or not they were before the war happened but I've never came across any pre-war Nazi material describing Poles as subhumans.

I'm more wanting to know whether or not any of the Nuremberg Laws discriminated against the Slavs, not from when they were described as subhumans.
Then the German Poles were asked to convert to/declare themselves Germans, and in the occupied territories various half-German/half-Poles and other "compound creatures" were allowed to converted to almost Germans. The rest became - the Poles. The Jews were told they were subhumans, the Poles weren't.
So what happens if they refused to declare themselves as Germans?
There were a rather large difference between what some obscure Nazi volumes on blood said, the Nazi plans, the laws, and what was happening on the ground.
I don't know much about the theory - what was in those volumes.
During the war, the Poles were placed on the same level as the Jews by a decree in 1941. But I'm referring to 1935 on wards.
For example in Auschwitz the Poles had the status of privileged prisoners, they were better than the Russians and a few other groups of prisoners. So there were subhumans and subhumans. Bulgarian, Slovaks weren't subhumans at all - because they were allies.
Did the Nazis really differentiate between Poles and Russians?

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#8

Post by wm » 16 Nov 2015, 20:14

sarahgoodson wrote:So how come during the war the Slavs were also discriminated from a racial point of view? And as I have also shown, Hitler wrote in the 1920s his views of the Slavs who he viewed as racially inferior, he had since his days in Vienna (the Pan-Germans viewed the Jews and Slavs as racially inferior).
Well, he must have changed his mind :). Hitler in a requiem mass for the great Polish hero Józef Piłsudski:
requiem mass.jpg
requiem mass.jpg (65.75 KiB) Viewed 3805 times
Goebbels wanted to leave his wife and children for Lida Baarova, a Czech actress but Hitler got mad.

The reasons were: politicians frequently don't practice what they preached; before the WW2 they couldn't do that for political reasons; and there were differences of opinion.
sarahgoodson wrote:So according to the Nuremberg Laws, was sexual intercourse and marriages not forbidden between Germans and Slavs?
No it wasn't. It was after the war started. All Slavs? I'm not sure.
sarahgoodson wrote:But where exactly were Slavs placed in the Nazis racial views?
You should read Rosenberg I suppose, he knew: attitude towards Slavs was flexible and depended on the particular nation involved.
sarahgoodson wrote:But weren't the Poles considered non-Aryan since they are Slavs? Publications that were public described them as subhumans after the war began.
As far as I know the Poles were Aryans, because Aryan = non-Jew. In the occupied Poland, there were Jews in the Ghettos and Aryans outside, everybody used this classification.
sarahgoodson wrote:I'm more wanting to know whether or not any of the Nuremberg Laws discriminated against the Slavs, not from when they were described as subhumans.
No, but there other laws that discriminated but it wasn't anything serious (before the WW2).
They were discriminated against if they didn't want to became true Germans and flaunted their "Polishness".
sarahgoodson wrote:During the war, the Poles were placed on the same level as the Jews by a decree in 1941.

Certainly not, you didn't want to be a Jew at that time, but a Pole why not.
Unless you mean the Poles weren't allowed to sleep with German women. Who knows who was the loser in this case :)
sarahgoodson wrote:Did the Nazis really differentiate between Poles and Russians?
Yes, see Rosenberg. But not always for this blood reason. Always there were other "non-bloody" reasons for discrimination.

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#9

Post by ManfredV » 18 Nov 2015, 18:59

Many Germans and Austrian have slavic roots, esp. in eastern parts of Germany (east of Saale and Elbe), but also in Upper Franconia and Upper Palatinate, Bavarian/bohemian forrest and in eastern parts of Austria. Germans and Austrians are more or less a mixture of mainly germanic, celtic and slavic roots and many also have ancestors from all kind of people from roman empire, jews an even turks and other ottomans.
So it would have been impossible for the Nazis to sort out "slavic blood" among Germans. Well, in Nazi party and Wehrmacht there were f.e. Koslowski, Sobitzki, Czaja, Bredow, Quitzow etc.
But of course Russians, Poles and other slavic nations were regarded as"minderwertig" and were misstreated, enslaved and killed.
Nazi race ideology was illogical andabsurd but cruel and terrible.

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#10

Post by sarahgoodson » 18 Nov 2015, 23:23

wm wrote:Well, he must have changed his mind :). Hitler in a requiem mass for the great Polish hero Józef Piłsudski:
requiem mass.jpg
Goebbels wanted to leave his wife and children for Lida Baarova, a Czech actress but Hitler got mad.
As early as 1925 Hitler called the Poles a foreign race who could not be Germanised and in 1933 was calling for the "ruthless Germanisation" of the East.

I'm aware Goebbels wasn't anti-Slavic, despite what Nazi propaganda said about Slavs.
The reasons were: politicians frequently don't practice what they preached; before the WW2 they couldn't do that for political reasons; and there were differences of opinion.
So even Rosenberg favoured German expansion in Russia.
No it wasn't. It was after the war started. All Slavs? I'm not sure.
It seems as though they tried every possible means of prohibiting sexual intercourse between Germans and Slavs.
In contrast, sexual relations between Germans and members of Eastern European nations were relentlessly prosecuted by the Gestapo on grounds of the "risk for the racial integrity of the German nation," and as usual only two sanctions were apples: committal to a concentration camp if the foreign offender was capable of being Germanized, or execution ("special treatment"). Preventive detention was demanded in the case of German offenders. This concerned above all Polish workers, the first to arrive in the Reich, but also Polish prisoners of war, over whom hung the threat of committal to a concentration camp, at least provisionally. A leaflet on the "duties of civilian workers . . . of Polish nationality" confirmed explicitly that the death sentence would be meted out for the offense of sexual intercourse with personals of German blood. Russians ("Eastern workers"), Czechs, Serbs, and others later came to be included in this category.
Diemut Majer, "Non-Germans Under the Third Reich", p. 180-181.
Greiser had summarily stated in an order of the day that marriages between Poles and marriages between Jews were provisionally banned, that marriages between ethnic Germans must "comply with the Nuremberg Race Laws," and that "if at all possible," there should be no marriage between Germans and Poles.
Ibid, p. 247.
During the war hundreds of thousands of workers from foreign countries, particularly from the East, were brought into Germany as forced laborers in factories and agriculture. With this advent of foreigners there naturally followed incidents of sexual intercourse between the foreigners and Germans. The Nazis, in order to meet this situation, began the issuance of numerous decrees concerning the treatment of foreigners who had sexual intercourse with Germans. Foreign nationals, particularly from the East, including Poles, Czechs, and Russians, were subject to these decrees (both civilians and prisoners of war). As early as 7/3/1940 Pancke, then chief of RuSHA, sent a report to the office of Bormann, assistant to Hess, suggesting the issuance of laws to protect German blood. Pancke said:

"At present there are hundreds of thousands of prisoners in Germany of all nationalities and degrees, partly in camps, but for the most part, however, as workers.

"* * * The dangers of intermixing and bastardizing of our people are extraordinarily grave. They lie to a great extent in the almost unlimited lack of knowledge throughout our nations of the problems of blood."

Following Pancke's suggestion, the Reich Security Main Office, known as RSHA, and under Himmler, began dealing with the problem by promulgating decrees which provided that in the event a foreigner had sexual intercourse with a German woman, he should be arrested and examined by a racial examiner of RuSHA. Upon the basis of this examination depended the treatment accorded the foreigner. Those determined to be racially inferior were subject to "special treatment" or a concentration camp; those found to be racially valuable were subject to Germanization. In order that the term "special treatment" might not be misunderstood, we quote from a decree issued by RSHA:

"Special treatment is hanging. * * *

"Sexual intercourse is forbidden to the manpower of the original Soviet Russian territory.

"For every case of sexual intercourse with German countrymen or women, special treatment is to be requested for male manpower from the original Soviet Russian territory, transfer to a concentration camp for female manpower.

"When exercising sexual intercourse with other foreign workers the conduct of the manpower from the original Soviet Russian territory is to be punished as severe violation of discipline with transfer to a concentration camp.

"The intercourse between other foreign workers employed in the Reich and the manpower from the original Soviet Russian territory also brings great dangers to be dealt with by the security police, therefore, it should also be fought with measures against the foreign workers. * * *"

The principal participants in carrying out measures relating to this charge were Himmler's organization, RSHA, which issued decrees and had the final decision on punishment after racial examination, and RuSHA, which made the racial examination and evaluation upon which depended to a large extent whether the offender should die or receive a lighter punishment.

That RuSHA was an active participant in these measures cannot be denied, for practically every decree or piece of correspondence concerning this subject either originated in the office of RuSHA or was sent to that office, or else the correspondence or decrees mentioned RuSHA's role in the matter.

We need quote but a few documents to show the close connection RuSHA had with this program.

On 9/14/1942, a letter originating from the office of RuSHA while Hofmann was chief of that office, stated:

"It is requested that in all special treatment cases where German women have become pregnant by men of alien races, the offenders be racially examined without delay.

"The Reich Security Main Office has instructed its branch office to present these cases immediately to the Commissioner of the SS Race and Settlement Main Office."

In a report sent to Hofmann in October 1942, we find the following:

"The order given by the Reich Leader of the SS on the special treatment of Poles is extended to the Czechs too. The Reich Security Main Office continues to complain that a quicker decision must be reached concerning suitability for Germanization. It proposes a short course of instruction for all the heads of the State Police Regional Offices and afterwards the inauguration through these of a system of rough racial selection of the civilian workers suggested for special treatment. On account of principal considerations this consent to the Reich Security Main Office had to be refused. It then remains for us, however, on the other hand to guarantee that the examination process will be speeded up. Once more reference must be made to the regular submission of the expert opinions to the Higher SS and Police Leaders. * * *"

Hofmann's complete familiarity with and participation in this program is shown by instructions he himself issued while Higher SS and Police Leader, after he left RuSHA. He said:

"With regard to illicit sexual intercourse of laborers of foreign stock the following ordinances are in force:

"All serious offenses such as assault and sexual offenses and sexual intercourse with German women and girls are to be reported at once to the Security Service (Security Police); as a matter of principle the department of justice will not be contacted in the beginning. As a rule both parties will be arrested.

"After being investigated as to his nationality the party of foreign race is subject to a racial evaluation by the competent RuS field leader; a potential suitability toward Germanization is to be explored.

"When a case of sexual intercourse is detected, the Amtsarzt (official physician) has to ascertain whether the participating German woman is pregnant. It is to be stated how far the pregnancy is advanced and whether another and what person beside the one of foreign stock in question might have fathered the prospective child (this investigation to be made by the Youth Office). If the person of foreign stock is fit for Germanization and if both parties are evaluated favorably under the racial viewpoint, marriage is possible under certain conditions, however, marriage between laborers from Serbia, or other Eastern laborers, and German girls are not permitted for the time being. A female worker of foreign stock, caused by the German man (in abuse of his position) to submit to sexual intercourse, will be taken into protective custody for a brief period, thereafter assigned to a different job. In other cases the female worker of foreign race is to be confined to a concentration camp for women. Pregnant women are to be sent to a concentration camp only after they have given birth and stilled the baby."

In 1943 Hildebrandt succeeded Hofmann as chief of RuSHA. The measures with reference to punishment of foreigners for sexual intercourse continued thereafter. During the time Hildebrandt was chief, two copies of Kaltenbrunner's decree of 2/10/1944 were sent to RuSHA. This decree, marked "secret", was a ten-page detailed order covering the procedure in cases involving foreigners who had had sexual intercourse with Germans. With reference to "special treatment" the decree states:

"Especially acts of sabotage, crimes of violence, and immoral crimes as well as sexual intercourse with German women and girls are to be considered as severe offenses

"On principle, the cases will not be handed over to Justice. Only those cases are to be transmitted there, where a court sentence appears to be desirable for reasons of political disposition of the public and where it has keen ascertained by sounding that the court will pass the death sentence * * *.

"Carrying out the special treatment shall serve especially to intimidate the foreign workers inside the Reich, this, however, will only be completely achieved if the expiation follows the deed at once.
Therefore the inquiries have to be completed immediately. It must be made possible for the reports to be submitted to RSHA in the case of B I, 4 days at the latest, B II, 2 months at the latest, B III, 3 weeks at the latest after the event. These offices which are involved in the process, are to be informed of this fact."

Hildebrandt, while on the witness stand, first denied that he comprehended the meaning of the term "special treatment", but later admitted that he knew that in the case of "special treatment" hanging might result.

Hildebrandt's familiarity with "special treatment" procedure is clearly shown in one of his own orders. On 3/31/1944, he appointed Dr. Turner as a deputy with powers to act in his absence. This appointment, according to the order, was made because Hildebrandt's assignment in the East would last a little while longer. In the order of appointment, Hildebrandt said:

"As before, I reserve the right to make long-range decisions as well as decisions of a fundamental nature. However, I again expressly decree that the official channel to me leads only via my deputy.

"Petitions for engagement and marriage permits and special treatment cases for submission to the Reich Leader SS are from 3/1/1944 to be submitted every week to SS Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Turner, when in Berlin, for dispatching to the Reich Leader SS, or to the Reich Security Main Office. When SS Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Turner is absent from Berlin, the chiefs of the marriage office and the race office retain the right of signature as ordered in point 5 of letter of 12/16/1943."

Thus, not only did Hildebrandt have familiarity with the term "special treatment", but he, and those deputized by him and under his express orders, actually handled special treatment cases.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56438
You should read Rosenberg I suppose, he knew: attitude towards Slavs was flexible and depended on the particular nation involved.
That's not his words but is from the Wikipedia article.
As far as I know the Poles were Aryans, because Aryan = non-Jew. In the occupied Poland, there were Jews in the Ghettos and Aryans outside, everybody used this classification.
Hitler called the Poles as a foreign race and the Slavs an inferior race, it doesn't seem plausible he considered Poles or other Slavs as Aryans.

I'm aware that the definition of Aryan was essentially a non-Jewish European but when it came to Hitler's own opinion it seems he only considered the Germanic people as Aryans.

It doesn't make much sense to consider the Poles as Aryans then regard them as racially inferior and prohibit sexual intercourse between a German and a Pole.
They were discriminated against if they didn't want to became true Germans and flaunted their "Polishness".
So in order to not be discriminated against, an ethnic Pole had to ignore any sort of Polish identity?
Certainly not, you didn't want to be a Jew at that time, but a Pole why not.
Unless you mean the Poles weren't allowed to sleep with German women. Who knows who was the loser in this case :)
I'm referring to the decree on 4 December, 1941.
Yes, see Rosenberg. But not always for this blood reason. Always there were other "non-bloody" reasons for discrimination.
But most Nazis thought of the Slavs as racially inferior, this is the point.

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#11

Post by sarahgoodson » 23 Nov 2015, 03:48

ManfredV wrote:Many Germans and Austrian have slavic roots, esp. in eastern parts of Germany (east of Saale and Elbe), but also in Upper Franconia and Upper Palatinate, Bavarian/bohemian forrest and in eastern parts of Austria. Germans and Austrians are more or less a mixture of mainly germanic, celtic and slavic roots and many also have ancestors from all kind of people from roman empire, jews an even turks and other ottomans.
Austrians are Germans. It's true that some Germans from Eastern Germany have Slavic roots, parts of East Germany were settled by Slavs. Also, some places names in modern day Austria and Germany are of Slavic origin. Those of German citizenship with ethnic Jewish, Turkish or other Ottoman ancestry, etc, are not ethnic Germans.
So it would have been impossible for the Nazis to sort out "slavic blood" among Germans. Well, in Nazi party and Wehrmacht there were f.e. Koslowski, Sobitzki, Czaja, Bredow, Quitzow etc.
But of course Russians, Poles and other slavic nations were regarded as"minderwertig" and were misstreated, enslaved and killed.
Nazi race ideology was illogical andabsurd but cruel and terrible.
Yes, the Nazis were aware many Germans had Slavic ancestry but look at the persecution of the Sorbs and Kashubians. They were forced to give up their Slavic culture, their language was forbidden and they were forced to develop a German identity.

Could a Pole or Russian be a Reich citizen? Where did these ethnic groups fit in with accordance to the Third Reich race laws? Was someone with a Polish or Russian grandparent classified as Mischling?

We do know that in 1940, Himmler wanted ethnic group concepts such as Polish, Ukrainian, etc to not exist, see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63400

With all due respect, an input of your opinion on what you consider Nazi race ideology is not really what I'm asking.

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#12

Post by sarahgoodson » 23 Nov 2015, 03:49

ManfredV wrote:Many Germans and Austrian have slavic roots, esp. in eastern parts of Germany (east of Saale and Elbe), but also in Upper Franconia and Upper Palatinate, Bavarian/bohemian forrest and in eastern parts of Austria. Germans and Austrians are more or less a mixture of mainly germanic, celtic and slavic roots and many also have ancestors from all kind of people from roman empire, jews an even turks and other ottomans.
Austrians are Germans. It's true that some Germans from Eastern Germany have Slavic roots, parts of East Germany were settled by Slavs. Also, some places names in modern day Austria and Germany are of Slavic origin.

Those of German citizenship with ethnic Jewish, Turkish or other Ottoman ancestry, etc, are not ethnic Germans.
So it would have been impossible for the Nazis to sort out "slavic blood" among Germans. Well, in Nazi party and Wehrmacht there were f.e. Koslowski, Sobitzki, Czaja, Bredow, Quitzow etc.
But of course Russians, Poles and other slavic nations were regarded as"minderwertig" and were misstreated, enslaved and killed.
Nazi race ideology was illogical andabsurd but cruel and terrible.
Yes, the Nazis were aware many Germans had Slavic ancestry but look at the persecution of the Sorbs and Kashubians. They were forced to give up their Slavic culture, their language was forbidden and they were forced to develop a German identity.

Could a Pole or Russian be a Reich citizen? Where did these ethnic groups fit in with accordance to the Third Reich race laws? Was someone with a Polish or Russian grandparent classified as Mischling?

The Nazis persecuted those with Jewish, Gypsy, Negroid and other "non-Aryan" ancestry, weren't the Slavs also regarded as non-Aryans? Thus, didn't they discriminate against someone with Slavic ancestry as "non-Aryan" too?

We do know that in 1940, Himmler wanted ethnic group concepts such as Polish, Ukrainian, etc to not exist, see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63400

With all due respect, an input of your opinion on what you consider Nazi race ideology is not really what I'm asking.

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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#13

Post by wm » 23 Nov 2015, 19:34

sarahgoodson wrote:As early as 1925 Hitler called the Poles a foreign race who could not be Germanised and in 1933 was calling for the "ruthless Germanisation" of the East.
The pre-1933 Hitler and the post-1933 Hitler were two different people, at least outwardly.
As a relatively obscure, fighting for votes politician he was able to say lots of things without fearing consequences - gaining support in the process. He and his minions certainly didn't dare to make such statements in '33-'39. In fact Poland was subjected to constant Nazi "peace and love" efforts.
sarahgoodson wrote:Could a Pole or Russian be a Reich citizen? Where did these ethnic groups fit in with accordance to the Third Reich race laws? Was someone with a Polish or Russian grandparent classified as Mischling?
The Poles certainly were Arians, the Third Reich race laws were only for the Jews.
The Poles could "live and prosper" as anybody else as long as they didn't rock the boat by their desire to be acknowledged as non-Germans. I know that as a fact, from reading pre-war Polish press articles describing their lives in Germany.

I know much less what happened to them after 1939. Although I suspect nothing drastic.
The problem is after the 1939 there were a few quite different categories of Poles, subjected to different rules/laws:
- those in Germany - basically German citizens,
- in the annexed by Germany Polish territory,
- in the occupied territories,
- the Poles working in Germany as slaves.

The slaves were subjected to the sexual intercourse ban, the other groups, as far I can tell, were not.
sarahgoodson wrote:So in order to not be discriminated against, an ethnic Pole had to ignore any sort of Polish identity?
Yes, although only in the last months of peace. Earlier there were problems but usually of local bureaucratic nature. There was an agreement between Poland and Germany which regulated their rights making the Polish Government their, let's say protector.
Union of Poles in Germany exited there till 1939.

ManfredV
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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#14

Post by ManfredV » 24 Nov 2015, 18:24

A german with a polish or russian grandfather/mother was regarded as german citizien and had usually no problems. People with a passport of a slavonian state had no greater problems until 1938/39 but then it get worse, esp. in war. During war people in occupied slavonian countries were exploited and suppressed. But Bulgaria, Croatia and Slovakia were allies...
The Nazi tried to extinguish sorbian, kashubian and austria-slovenian language and culture but they didn't try to kill them.
I'm not shure if you all understand what a "german ethnic" is - not the Nazi idea but in reality.
Usually wikipedia is not very reliable, but in this case english and esp. german wiki have a good explanation about Germans/Deutsche.
@sarahgoodson: around 1700 Holy Roman Empire fought succesful wars against Ottoman empire. The Habsburgs, markgrave Ludwig of Baden (Türkenlouis) and elector Maximilian II. Emanuel of Bavaria made a lot of ottoman war prisoners. Thousands of them were brought to Germany esp. Bavaria. Many of them stayed in Bavaria and married bavarian girls. Of course their descendants are "ethnic germans", why not?

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sarahgoodson
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Re: Slavs and the Nuremberg Laws

#15

Post by sarahgoodson » 25 Nov 2015, 04:41

wm wrote:The pre-1933 Hitler and the post-1933 Hitler were two different people, at least outwardly.
As a relatively obscure, fighting for votes politician he was able to say lots of things without fearing consequences - gaining support in the process. He and his minions certainly didn't dare to make such statements in '33-'39. In fact Poland was subjected to constant Nazi "peace and love" efforts.
Given his statements in Mein Kampf and Zweites Buch, it's safe to say Hitler did not view the Poles as Aryans. He said they were a "foreign race" and said any attempts at Germanising them would bring about a racial weakening of the German people.
The Poles certainly were Arians, the Third Reich race laws were only for the Jews.
The Poles could "live and prosper" as anybody else as long as they didn't rock the boat by their desire to be acknowledged as non-Germans. I know that as a fact, from reading pre-war Polish press articles describing their lives in Germany.
The laws were primarily against the Jews but were also against other non-Aryans and a further degree extended the laws to "Gypsies, Negroes and their bastard offspring". But, I thought Slavs were also non-Aryans so how come they were not discriminated as non-Aryans?
I know much less what happened to them after 1939. Although I suspect nothing drastic.
The problem is after the 1939 there were a few quite different categories of Poles, subjected to different rules/laws:
- those in Germany - basically German citizens,
- in the annexed by Germany Polish territory,
- in the occupied territories,
- the Poles working in Germany as slaves.
The slaves were subjected to the sexual intercourse ban, the other groups, as far I can tell, were not.
Poles who had sexual intercourse with a German could be tried for the "crime" as it was considered "anti-German".
"Thus, it was generally agreed that sexual intercourse between Germans and Poles, even in cases where no criminal enticement was involved (sec. 176, no. 3, Penal Code), constituted a criminal act analogous to "race defilement," one that was punishable as "anti-German behavior" where the implicated Polish man was concerned (clause 1, par. 3, Decree on Penal Law for Poles)."
Diemut Majer, "Non-Germans" Under the Third Reich, p.333.

However, Majer also remarked:
The best example of the shift in meaning that occurred in the conception of völkisch inequality toward that of a political principle is seen in the position of the Eastern European peoples in the National Socialist scheme things. Discrimination against Poles was justified, however, because, like all Slavs, they represented a major völkisch and racial threat to Germany. The placement of the Poles under rule of special law was done from fundamentally political motives. The race-political grounds for hatred of the Poles were merely the ideological mask justifying the National Socialist policy of violent force. The political bias for the systemically fomented hatred of and malice against Poles reveals itself in the thesis, invented ex post facto, of their "threat to the community," which then became the dominant argument in both theory and practice. According to this, the Poles had to be excluded from the European community of rights on account of their "Germanophobia" and their political incompetence and "lack of culture." In contrast with this political argument, neither the racial window dressing of Nazi propaganda that commenced in 1939, according to which the Poles were "racial foes" with regard to whom restraints were not to be observed, nor the elaborate attempts of the Race Policy Office to set up a racial classification of the Poles achieved much of an echo.
Ibid, pp.62-64.

Also, there is a video of a German male and a Polish female being punished by locals in Silesia in 1941 for their forbidden relations on the USHMM website.

The description by USHMM reads:
Public humiliation of a young couple guilty of "Rassenschande" [racial shame or racial defilement] in Steinsdorf [present day Scinawa Nyska, Poland] in Silesia. Sexual relations between Germans and non-Aryans were forbidden and punishable by law in Nazi Germany. Bronia, a 16 year old Polish slave laborer, had been working with Gerhard Greschok (Krzeszczok), a 19 year old German, at the Adler family farm in Steinsdorf in the summer of 1941 when their forbidden affair was reported to the Gestapo. The film was discovered in an attic in Sturov, Slovakia in 1946.
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/fv5565
Yes, although only in the last months of peace. Earlier there were problems but usually of local bureaucratic nature. There was an agreement between Poland and Germany which regulated their rights making the Polish Government their, let's say protector.
Union of Poles in Germany exited there till 1939.
Even during the interwar period there was still an anti-Polish sentiment in Germany way before 1939.
ManfredV wrote:A german with a polish or russian grandfather/mother was regarded as german citizien and had usually no problems. People with a passport of a slavonian state had no greater problems until 1938/39 but then it get worse, esp. in war. During war people in occupied slavonian countries were exploited and suppressed. But Bulgaria, Croatia and Slovakia were allies...
But weren't they considered non-Aryans?

Being Allies doesn't grant them citizenship.
The Nazi tried to extinguish sorbian, kashubian and austria-slovenian language and culture but they didn't try to kill them.
Those who refused to abandon their identity were sent to a concentration camp.
I'm not shure if you all understand what a "german ethnic" is - not the Nazi idea but in reality.
Usually wikipedia is not very reliable, but in this case english and esp. german wiki have a good explanation about Germans/Deutsche.
@sarahgoodson: around 1700 Holy Roman Empire fought succesful wars against Ottoman empire. The Habsburgs, markgrave Ludwig of Baden (Türkenlouis) and elector Maximilian II. Emanuel of Bavaria made a lot of ottoman war prisoners. Thousands of them were brought to Germany esp. Bavaria. Many of them stayed in Bavaria and married bavarian girls. Of course their descendants are "ethnic germans", why not?
I think you'll find it's your definition of ethnicity that is wrong. How about you actually read up on what an ethnic group is and the answer to your question will be answered, you can start by reading the Wikipedia article you cited as having a "good explanation". Practice what you preach.

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