A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
But without any reciprocal drops of other cultural or ethnic groups in the "Deutsches Reich"
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
What exactly do you expect, though? After all, this is a German-centered map!Sheldrake wrote:But without any reciprocal drops of other cultural or ethnic groups in the "Deutsches Reich"
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
..... Published in 1932! It's political context should be noted.Futurist wrote:What exactly do you expect, though? After all, this is a German-centered map!Sheldrake wrote:But without any reciprocal drops of other cultural or ethnic groups in the "Deutsches Reich"
Is not clear what exactly each patch of red means. Is it :
"Everyone here is a German " or
"Some people speak some German here" ? or
"Some German academic thinks that blue eyed blond people live here" ?
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
I think it means: here are communities of people with german as first language and self-designation as Germans live here.
fe. Volhynia: a lot of german speaking people lived there. My mother came from Volhynia. She and here family were descendants of german immigrants to Russia, they spoke german and considered themselves as Germans.
In "Sudetenland", Danzig and Siebenbürgen those Germans were the majority. In West Prussia / Pommerellen Germans where not the majority. So this map is not really reliable, but of course many german speaking people ("Volksdeutsche") lived in Eastern Europe.
By the way: Poland is not Eastern Europe, it is part of Central Europe.
fe. Volhynia: a lot of german speaking people lived there. My mother came from Volhynia. She and here family were descendants of german immigrants to Russia, they spoke german and considered themselves as Germans.
In "Sudetenland", Danzig and Siebenbürgen those Germans were the majority. In West Prussia / Pommerellen Germans where not the majority. So this map is not really reliable, but of course many german speaking people ("Volksdeutsche") lived in Eastern Europe.
By the way: Poland is not Eastern Europe, it is part of Central Europe.
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Two things:Sheldrake wrote:..... Published in 1932! It's political context should be noted.Futurist wrote:What exactly do you expect, though? After all, this is a German-centered map!Sheldrake wrote:But without any reciprocal drops of other cultural or ethnic groups in the "Deutsches Reich"
1. Adolf Hitler and the Nazis weren't in power in Germany yet back in 1932.
2. The 1932 map above looks extremely similar to the 1925 map below:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksdeut ... a_1925.jpg
I think that it means that there is a sizable number and/or a sizable percentage of ethnic Germans living here.Is not clear what exactly each patch of red means. Is it :
"Everyone here is a German " or
"Some people speak some German here" ? or
"Some German academic thinks that blue eyed blond people live here" ?
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Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
This map is definitely not based on 1931 census in Poland (and neither is the 1925 map based on 1921 census in Poland).
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Well, based on an actual map of the 1931 Polish census results in regards to the frequency of the German language in Poland, one can probably safely say that the colored areas on the 1932 and 1925 German maps above indicate areas which have a double-digit percentage, rather than a majority population, of ethnic Germans:Peter K wrote:This map is definitely not based on 1931 census in Poland (and neither is the 1925 map based on 1921 census in Poland).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mi ... f_1931.PNG
Do you agree with this statement of mine, Peter?
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Also, for what it's worth, it appears that no part of Romania actually had an ethnic German-majority or an ethnic German-plurality population in 1930. However, a couple of parts of Romania actually did come close to having an ethnic German-plurality population in 1930:Futurist wrote:Here you go:
In turn, this appears to suggest that this map is focused on showing areas with large ethnic German populations even if ethnic Germans are not a majority or even a plurality in these areas.
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Those maps attached by Futurist seem to show "German language speaking population" rather then ethnic Germans.
Note that Austria is all in red and I wouldn't think there was double-digit ethnic Germans population there...?
Note that Austria is all in red and I wouldn't think there was double-digit ethnic Germans population there...?
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Actually, Austrians are ethnic Germans.GregSingh wrote:Those maps attached by Futurist seem to show "German language speaking population" rather then ethnic Germans.
Note that Austria is all in red and I wouldn't think there was double-digit ethnic Germans population there...?
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Sheldrake wrote:But without any reciprocal drops of other cultural or ethnic groups in the "Deutsches Reich"
Here you go. From The March of Man from the encyclopedia Britannica published in 1935.
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Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Yes, probably this is the case. Anyway, they surely do not show areas with German majority.Futurist wrote:Well, based on an actual map of the 1931 Polish census results in regards to the frequency of the German language in Poland, one can probably safely say that the colored areas on the 1932 and 1925 German maps above indicate areas which have a double-digit percentage, rather than a majority population, of ethnic Germans
BTW, here is an interesting map which compares the pre-1772 (excluding fiefs) and the post-1921 western borders of Poland:
As you can see compared to pre-1772 situation, after 1921 Poland gained land in the south-west, but lost in the north-west.
Overall net change was, in terms of area, negative for Poland - which lost 2890 km2 of land in the west compared to 1772:
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 02 May 2016, 05:03, edited 1 time in total.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.
Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Well, blame David Lloyd George or whoever else was responsible for the decision to conduct a plebiscite in Upper Silesia after the end of World War I instead of simply outright giving most or all of Upper Silesia to Poland.Peter K wrote:Yes, probably this is the case. Anyway, they surely do not show areas with German majority.Futurist wrote:Well, based on an actual map of the 1931 Polish census results in regards to the frequency of the German language in Poland, one can probably safely say that the colored areas on the 1932 and 1925 German maps above indicate areas which have a double-digit percentage, rather than a majority population, of ethnic Germans
BTW - here is an interesting map which compares the pre-1772 and the post-1921 western borders of Poland:
As you can see compared to pre-1772 situation, after 1921 Poland gained land in the south-west, but lost in the north-west.
Overall net change was, however, in terms of territory negative for Poland, which lost 2890 km2 of land in the west:
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Re: A 1932 map of the ethnic German population in Eastern Europe
Austrian historian Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn in his book "Die falsh gestellten Weichen: Der rote faden 1789-1984", writes that the best border solutions after WW1 would have been:
- give Grenzmark Posen-Westpreussen (that area of 7.695 km2 shown above) to Poland
- give Danzig to Poland (instead of creating a Free City there), ignoring ethnic structure
- create Upper Silesia as a Polish-German condominium instead of partitioning the region
When it comes to East Prussia, separated from the rest of Germany by Polish territory - von Kuehnelt-Leddihn compared it to Alaska, separated from the rest of the USA by Canadian territory.
He also wrote: "but maybe it would have been better, if East Prussia was as well incorporated to Poland".
He was an Austrian Catholic nobleman (maybe that's why he was so Pro-Polish and Anti-Prussian / Anti-German?):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_von_Kuehnelt-Leddihn
- give Grenzmark Posen-Westpreussen (that area of 7.695 km2 shown above) to Poland
- give Danzig to Poland (instead of creating a Free City there), ignoring ethnic structure
- create Upper Silesia as a Polish-German condominium instead of partitioning the region
When it comes to East Prussia, separated from the rest of Germany by Polish territory - von Kuehnelt-Leddihn compared it to Alaska, separated from the rest of the USA by Canadian territory.
He also wrote: "but maybe it would have been better, if East Prussia was as well incorporated to Poland".
He was an Austrian Catholic nobleman (maybe that's why he was so Pro-Polish and Anti-Prussian / Anti-German?):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_von_Kuehnelt-Leddihn
After all Poland was also traditionally Catholic and a country for much of its history ruled by noblemen.Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn (born July 31, 1909 in Tobelbad (now Haselsdorf-Tobelbad), Austria-Hungary; died May 26, 1999, in Lans, Austria) was an Austrian Catholic nobleman and socio-political theorist. Describing himself as an "extreme conservative arch-liberal" or "liberal of the extreme right", Kuehnelt-Leddihn often argued that majority rule in democracies is a threat to individual liberties, and declared himself a monarchist and an enemy of all forms of totalitarianism.[1] (...)
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 02 May 2016, 05:21, edited 1 time in total.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.