living in occupied lorraine
Re: living in occupied lorraine
Georges, ManfredV, and Michael, thank you! This discussion is a lot more in-depth than I've read on the subject previously.
Georges, a couple of questions:
Is 30,000 the accepted number for the Malgré-nous? I have seen different numbers, but think you would know the established figure.
And, is it known how many of the expelled returned after the war?
~Vikki
Georges, a couple of questions:
Is 30,000 the accepted number for the Malgré-nous? I have seen different numbers, but think you would know the established figure.
And, is it known how many of the expelled returned after the war?
~Vikki
Re: living in occupied lorraine
I think there was a difference between Alsace and Lorraine. Alsace has always had a high proportion of German speakers and a strongly Germanic culture. It was alwas on the periphery of France, a C16th conquest. The Northern half of Lorraine OTOH had been grabbed in 1871 to obtain the fortress of Metz and the iron ore of the region. Lorraine was the home of Joan of Arc andn had a much higher proportion of french speakers.
Those differences are very visible today. The German Garrison Church of Metz, built after 1870 with a higher spire than the cathedral is made of rhineland stone very different to the local stone. Alsace is famous for german beer and choucroute/sauerkraut. Lorraine for onion tarts.
Those differences are very visible today. The German Garrison Church of Metz, built after 1870 with a higher spire than the cathedral is made of rhineland stone very different to the local stone. Alsace is famous for german beer and choucroute/sauerkraut. Lorraine for onion tarts.
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Re: living in occupied lorraine
Vikki,
last publications including the now standard "l'incorporation de force des mosellans 1942 1945 Libel 2012 confirm 30 000. 7000 were K.I.A.
here a list from Nicolas Mengus giving a widest view in 2014 :
130.000 enlist ed (64.000 in Bas-Rhin, 36.000 in haut-Rhin, 30.000 in Moselle).
21 classes of ages mobilised in Alsace, 14 in Moselle.
30 à 40.000 K.I.A. morts.
between 11 and 20.000 missing.
30.000 wounded or disabled
12.000 missing in russian POW camps.
Most of evacuated and expelled people came home. Remaining were the youngest who start a new life in South west creating familly.
Georges
last publications including the now standard "l'incorporation de force des mosellans 1942 1945 Libel 2012 confirm 30 000. 7000 were K.I.A.
here a list from Nicolas Mengus giving a widest view in 2014 :
130.000 enlist ed (64.000 in Bas-Rhin, 36.000 in haut-Rhin, 30.000 in Moselle).
21 classes of ages mobilised in Alsace, 14 in Moselle.
30 à 40.000 K.I.A. morts.
between 11 and 20.000 missing.
30.000 wounded or disabled
12.000 missing in russian POW camps.
Most of evacuated and expelled people came home. Remaining were the youngest who start a new life in South west creating familly.
Georges
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Re: living in occupied lorraine
From 300 000 evacuated in 1939 200 000 return home . 70 000 remain in France and 24 000 were not accepted by the commission of the Heimkehrlager St Dizier run by Grenzpolizei (a branch of Gestapo) which studied all cases of return.
3110 mosellans dead. 86 % Wehrmacht and only 2,2 % in Waffen-SS.
3110 mosellans dead. 86 % Wehrmacht and only 2,2 % in Waffen-SS.
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Re: living in occupied lorraine
that's correct . Add datasSheldrake wrote:I think there was a difference between Alsace and Lorraine. Alsace has always had a high proportion of German speakers and a strongly Germanic culture. It was alwas on the periphery of France, a C16th conquest. The Northern half of Lorraine OTOH had been grabbed in 1871 to obtain the fortress of Metz and the iron ore of the region. Lorraine was the home of Joan of Arc andn had a much higher proportion of french speakers.
Those differences are very visible today. The German Garrison Church of Metz, built after 1870 with a higher spire than the cathedral is made of rhineland stone very different to the local stone. Alsace is famous for german beer and choucroute/sauerkraut. Lorraine for onion tarts.
Alsace lost Belfort area which became a french departement.
Moselle gave north area (Longwy, Briey) to Departement de la Meurthe
area of Château Salins and Sarrebourg left Meurthe to be incorporated to Moselle (frenchy areas mostly expelled on 1940)
Food question : alsacian (!) beer, choucroute and Flamküche (onion tart) were alsacians
creamy tart with onions and pork (quiche) was lorrain
Georges
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Re: living in occupied lorraine
History of the Patriots against Occupation (patriotes resistant à l'occupant) is unknown. Alsacians and Mosellans were involved.
Here is reported the situation in Moselle (3/4 of them)
En effet, avec les ordonnances sur la germanisation des noms, l'utilisation de l'allemand comme seule langue d'enseignement, l'assimilation des mosellans de souche était en marche et constituait un des objectifs prioritaires du Gauleiter Bürckel Chef de l'Administration Civile en Moselle.
Some families of "Lothringers" resisted to assimilation. By their attitude in street, at work . Generally they refuse to join Deutsche Volksgemeinschaft and HJ for children and themselves to join a party organisation. On 1942 they refused german Citizenship.
They wished to be expelled in France.
The nazis decided to germanise them in spite they were considered as dangerous for the securty of the Reich. Because they had "german blood" as ethnic germans.
9 200 mosellans (full family) were resettled by force between may 1942 et july 1943 in industrial areas of germany and in annexed territories : Oberschlesien (Poland), Ossterreich (Austria), Sudetenland and Protektorat Bohmen und Mahren (former tchecoslovakia) they lived in Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle lagern (ethnic german camps) next to areas where they replaced the german mobilised in factories and farms.
camps étaient were under Reichkommissariat für die Festigung Deutsches Volksturms RKFDV for the Policy and VOMI two SS organisations. . Each camp (Lager) was headed by an SS officer.
After the war, they had difficulties with their statut of victims of nazism. They had to wait 29 august 1959 to received the statut of P.R.O. (alsacians and mosellans) as political victims. Because nazis considered them as settlers (siedlers) and not inmates. they had difficulties to obtain indemnities for german gouvernement like for "Malgré-nous".
Finally 9 250 mosellans et 3 500 alsaciens benefit of the statut P.R.O.
Georges
Here is reported the situation in Moselle (3/4 of them)
En effet, avec les ordonnances sur la germanisation des noms, l'utilisation de l'allemand comme seule langue d'enseignement, l'assimilation des mosellans de souche était en marche et constituait un des objectifs prioritaires du Gauleiter Bürckel Chef de l'Administration Civile en Moselle.
Some families of "Lothringers" resisted to assimilation. By their attitude in street, at work . Generally they refuse to join Deutsche Volksgemeinschaft and HJ for children and themselves to join a party organisation. On 1942 they refused german Citizenship.
They wished to be expelled in France.
The nazis decided to germanise them in spite they were considered as dangerous for the securty of the Reich. Because they had "german blood" as ethnic germans.
9 200 mosellans (full family) were resettled by force between may 1942 et july 1943 in industrial areas of germany and in annexed territories : Oberschlesien (Poland), Ossterreich (Austria), Sudetenland and Protektorat Bohmen und Mahren (former tchecoslovakia) they lived in Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle lagern (ethnic german camps) next to areas where they replaced the german mobilised in factories and farms.
camps étaient were under Reichkommissariat für die Festigung Deutsches Volksturms RKFDV for the Policy and VOMI two SS organisations. . Each camp (Lager) was headed by an SS officer.
After the war, they had difficulties with their statut of victims of nazism. They had to wait 29 august 1959 to received the statut of P.R.O. (alsacians and mosellans) as political victims. Because nazis considered them as settlers (siedlers) and not inmates. they had difficulties to obtain indemnities for german gouvernement like for "Malgré-nous".
Finally 9 250 mosellans et 3 500 alsaciens benefit of the statut P.R.O.
Georges