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Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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Beppo Schmidt
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#106

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 25 Sep 2003, 03:19

I suppose Smith would gleefully turn in every Jews he found to the nearest Gestapo commander.

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Scott Smith
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#107

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 07:51

Qvist wrote:
Not sure I see your point.
Oh I think you do. Allow me to spell it out for you. Your isolationism is neither here nor there. You are an anti-semite. Unless you are so stupid that you make yourself into a spokesman for anti-semitism without being one, which I seriously doubt.
Let's stop right there. We should explore that avenue. What is your definition of anti-Semitism? I agree with Dr. Mathis in that "anti-Semitism is the irrational fear and hatred of Jews and that any other definition is wrong."

Please demonstrate the above in my case.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 26 Sep 2003, 00:26, edited 1 time in total.


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Scott Smith
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#108

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 07:53

Beppo Schmidt wrote:I suppose Smith would gleefully turn in every Jews he found to the nearest Gestapo commander.
Only if they were acting as agents of Allied governments, otherwise I could care less.
:)

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Scott Smith
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#109

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 08:08

witness wrote:
Smith wrote:A Jew can oppose the Nazi regime and still be a German-Jew, but a German cannot oppose the Nazi regime in wartime and still be a German, the way I see it. It is treason not rocket science.
So the American pacifists who were voicing their objections to the war in Vietnam were traitors ?
Those Americans who voice their objections to the war in Irq right now are also traitors ?
Vietnam was not even a declared war. You could legally trade with the enemy or give blood for the Viet Cong. The military refused to mine Haiphong harbor or blockade North Vietnam from Russian and Chinese materiel. Rarely was North Vietnam attacked and only then in order to bring them back to the bargaining table to allow an American withdrawal without calling it a defeat. More ordnance was dropped on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos, Cambodia, and S. Vietnam than was used in all of WWII. A simple carpet bombing of North Vietnam would have led to victory in 1965 but the Johnson Adminstration was unwilling to put more pressure on the Chinese and Russians and risk widening the war. Confrontation with the Cold War was out of the question because without the Cold War the military-industrial complex would have collapsed and there would have been little need for Interventionist Globaloney. The only reason that most people today see the "terrorist threat" the way they do is that few people of the younger generations have any military experience at all and therefore see it the way the fear mongers wish it to be seen. Post-Gorbachev coming to power it was increasingly difficult to portray the Russians as a real threat. That's where pistol-waving, American flag-burning ragheads come in; they look just like the guy selling squishies at Circle K, hence a fear that can be cultivated. Enter Ashcroft and Homeland Security. Even libraries are now subject to Big Brotherism.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 26 Sep 2003, 00:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Scott Smith
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#110

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 08:20

Beppo Schmidt wrote:
Like it or not, Jews were lawfully denied citizenship. A Jew can oppose the Nazi regime and still be a German-Jew, but a German cannot oppose the Nazi regime in wartime and still be a German, the way I see it. It is treason not rocket science.
So every German just has to sit down and shut up while their Jewish friend/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife is hauled away to Auschwitz, never to be seen again? Someone who tries to protect persecuted Jews is a traitor and no longer a "true German"?
A false-dilemma. The war did not come to an end because Japanese-American citizens were interned by the government, and Germans knew nothing more than that.

However, one did not become a Japanese agent and spreader of enemy propaganda if he were against such unfair government policies. (Many were Communist agents but that is another story.) Mr. Kaschner has suggested that the Japanese internment was opposed by many Americans. I find that hard to believe, at least in any serious way. My experience talking to anyone who is old enough to remember is that "Hell-yes, the Japs should have been sent to concentration camps after Pearl Harbor, with no apologies." And if there is another war that lasts longer than a "two-minutes of Hate" on CNN, the Arabs should likewise be rounded-up, by this way of thinking.

In any case, during WWII, which was a declared war, FDR had his critics tried for sedition, and the government executed German nationals caught in the United States, whether they had actually spied or committed sabotage or not.

Of course, I can't think of any regime that would not consider those who tried to assassinate the Head of State to be traitors and dispatch them with extreme prejudice. Only the Bundestablishment and its brood would think like they were heroes. And I rather enjoy pointing it out.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 26 Sep 2003, 00:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Qvist
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#111

Post by Qvist » 25 Sep 2003, 16:51

So every German just has to sit down and shut up while their Jewish friend/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife is hauled away to Auschwitz, never to be seen again? Someone who tries to protect persecuted Jews is a traitor and no longer a "true German"?

A false-dilemma. The war did not come to an end because Japanese-American citizens were interned by the government, and Germans knew nothing more than that.
How about just answering that question rather than going off at a tangent about internement of Japanese-Americans? Might save me the bother of answering yours.

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#112

Post by David Thompson » 25 Sep 2003, 16:59

Scott -- You said:
In any case, during WWII, which was a declared war, FDR had his critics tried for sedition, and the government executed German nationals caught in the United States, whether they had actually spied or committed sabotage or not.
What is your evidence for these claims?

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Qvist
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#113

Post by Qvist » 25 Sep 2003, 17:01

Let's stop right there. We should explore that avenue. What is your definition of anti-Semitism? I agree with Dr. Mathis in that anti-Semitism is the irrational fear and hatred of Jews and that any other definition is wrong.

Please demonstrate the above in my case.
I suppose you would argue that yours is rather a rational attitude of critical thinking towards their Jews? How many anti-semites can you imagine who would own up to being anti-semites by applying that definition to themselves? "Yep, I really hate the Jews, and the reason is I'm filled with totally irrational fears". Considering that you consistently imply the holocaust did not take place, defend the rationale behind nazi policies (such as you see it as being) and have not to my knowledge uttered one word indicating that you have much of a problem with nazi racial policies or practice, I think I'm relatively justified in thinking of you as an anti-semite whatever definition you prefer to adhere to yourself. If that is an impression you want to avoid, why don't you start by answering, f.e., Beppos perfectly reasonable question?

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chalutzim
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#114

Post by chalutzim » 25 Sep 2003, 17:03

Scott Smith wrote:(...) I agree with Dr. Mathis in that anti-Semitism is the irrational fear and hatred of Jews and that any other definition is wrong.
Is this accurate? If Jews were the only people with Semitic ancestry, very well. But they're not, and "Semitic" it's not even a ethnic notion, but rather a linguistic one. I prefer Anti-Jewish and Anti-Jewry. Do you agree?

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Beppo Schmidt
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#115

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 25 Sep 2003, 21:02

I'm out of this thread, I'm tired of having my posts twisted around or flat-out ignored by this worm.

Auf Wiedersehen

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Scott Smith
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#116

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 21:14

Beppo Schmidt wrote:I'm out of this thread, I'm tired of having my posts twisted around or flat-out ignored by this worm.

Auf Wiedersehen
You mean Stauffenberg.
:lol:

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witness
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#117

Post by witness » 25 Sep 2003, 21:28

I think he meant the one who "would gleefully turn in every Jews he found to the nearest Gestapo commander." :)

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Scott Smith
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#118

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 21:44

David Thompson wrote:
Scott wrote:In any case, during WWII, which was a declared war, FDR had his critics tried for sedition, and the government executed German nationals caught in the United States, whether they had actually spied or committed sabotage or not.
What is your evidence for these claims?
We'll try a smidgeon of Google search.

Here we go.
Secret Military Tribunals? Remember George Dasch!

[...]
What are your views on President Bush's plan to use secret military tribunals to try foreigners accused of terrorism in America rather than regular criminal courts?

The latest results are:
Secret military tribunals should be used. (48.97%)
Regular US criminal courts should be used. (26.88%)
No opinion. (24.14%)

Supporters of the proposal and many in the media have pointed to the use of such a secret military tribunal to try 8 German saboteurs put ashore by Nazi submarines in 1942. What has not been widely reported is that one of America’s most disgraceful miscarriages of justice was perpetrated by the use of a secret military tribunal in that case.

The leader of the German saboteurs who landed on Amagansett beach in New York’s Long Island, was George Dasch. He was a German who had lived for many years in the USA and had a wife who was still in America. He also hated Hitler.

As soon as possible Dasch called the FBI. However, the FBI agents who answered Dasch’s calls thought he was a crank. Dasch was then force to travel from New York to Washington D.C. and was only able to convince the FBI that he was indeed the leader of the German saboteurs by dumping $84,000 that the Nazis had supplied him with on the desk of an FBI agent.

With Dasch’s help the FBI quickly apprehended all of the saboteurs. Dasch expected to be hailed as the anti-Nazi hero that he was. But for Dasch, the German plans to blow up American aluminum and power plants could have severely hampered the war effort.

J. Edgar Hoover had other plans for Dasch. Hoover figured that if Dasch could be tried and executed by a secret military tribunal the FBI’s ineptness in ignoring Dasch’s original phone calls could be covered-up. Furthermore, the FBI could then claim that it had broken the Nazi sabotage ring.

Hoover concealed Dasch’s heroism from the press and lied about it to Roosevelt. A secret military tribunal sentenced all 8 of the Germans, including Dash to death in July 1942. However, Roosevelt did find out the truth and commuted Dasch’ s sentence to 30 years imprisonment and the death sentence of another German who had sided with Dasch was commuted to life imprisonment. On August 8th, 1942 the other six Germans were electrocuted in the District Jail win Washington D.C. Dasch was deported in 1948.

Roosevelt never told the public about Hoover’s deception. The truth only became known many years later. Those who now favor the use of secret military tribunals, should be aware of the way that a secret military tribunal was used to perpetrate a tragic injustice against one of America’s most mistreated heroes – George Dasch.

[Emphasis added.]

http://www.voy.com/1448/38.html
And here is a book on FDR's "Great Sedition Trials" of 1944:

A Trial on Trial: the Great Sedition trial of 1944.
Author(s): St.-George, Maximilian, b. 1885. ; Dennis, Lawrence,; 1893- ; joint author.
National Civil Rights Committee, 1946.

Here's an IHR Book Review of the book:
L.A. Rollins wrote:[...]
Of course, the Sedition Trial of 1944 has been consigned to the Orwellian memory hole by America's post-World-War-Two political, economic, intellectual, cultural, academic and media establishments. After all, a basic and unquestioned premise of all post-war Establishment thinking has been the necessity and nobility of Roosevelt II's interventionist warmongering. And the reality of the mass sedition trial of 1944 rather glaringly conflicts with at least one aspect of the mythological version of Roosevelt's War, the myth that the Roosevelt regime displayed an unusually tender solicitude for civil liberties during wartime. The IHR's reprinting of Dennis and St. George's classic work on the 1944 Sedition Trial is an important contribution to the task of "blasting the historical blackout" that still keeps most Americans in the dark about Roosevelt's War.

Lawrence Dennis was himself one of the twenty-nine defendants charged with conspiring to undermine the morale of the armed forces in violation of the Smith Act of 1940. His co-author Maximilian St. George, was defense attorney for Joseph McWilliams, another of the defendants in the trial.

[Emphasis added.]

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p123_Rollins.html
Hope that helps.
:)

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Scott Smith
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#119

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 21:46

witness wrote:I think he meant the one who "would gleefully turn in every Jews he found to the nearest Gestapo commander." :)
Yeah, Stauffenberg, no less. One shouldn't be too surprised; traitors can and do turn on anybody.
:wink:

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Scott Smith
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#120

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 21:51

chalutzim wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:(...) I agree with Dr. Mathis in that anti-Semitism is the irrational fear and hatred of Jews and that any other definition is wrong.
Is this accurate? If Jews were the only people with Semitic ancestry, very well. But they're not, and "Semitic" it's not even a ethnic notion, but rather a linguistic one. I prefer Anti-Jewish and Anti-Jewry. Do you agree?
I don't know. Sometimes semantical distinctions can be less precise. I prefer the common usage, I think. If you are going to say "anti-jewry" and "anti-Jewish" you then have to get into distinctions about whether you mean Jews as a religion, race, ethnicity, nation, people, culture, diaspora, etc.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 26 Sep 2003, 00:33, edited 1 time in total.

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