July plotters

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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Scott Smith
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#121

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 21:52

Qvist wrote:
Scott wrote:
Beppo wrote:So every German just has to sit down and shut up while their Jewish friend/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife is hauled away to Auschwitz, never to be seen again? Someone who tries to protect persecuted Jews is a traitor and no longer a "true German"?
A false-dilemma. The war did not come to an end because Japanese-American citizens were interned by the government, and Germans knew nothing more than that.
How about just answering that question rather than going off at a tangent about internement of Japanese-Americans? Might save me the bother of answering yours.
Like I said, I think it is a false-dilemma, one manufactured by Hollywood and novelists.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 25 Sep 2003, 22:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Beppo Schmidt
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#122

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 25 Sep 2003, 21:55

Like I said, I think it is a false-dilemma, one manufactured by Hollywood and novelists.
What more blatant Holocaust denial do the moderators need? This forum needs to be de-loused. And before anyone gives me a "warning" about personal insults, I will call Scott Smith and anyone else exactly what they are.


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Scott Smith
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#123

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 22:15

Qvist wrote:
Scott wrote:Let's stop right there. We should explore that avenue. What is your definition of anti-Semitism? I agree with Dr. Mathis in that anti-Semitism is the irrational fear and hatred of Jews and that any other definition is wrong.

Please demonstrate the above in my case.
I suppose you would argue that yours is rather a rational attitude of critical thinking towards their Jews? How many anti-semites can you imagine who would own up to being anti-semites by applying that definition to themselves? "Yep, I really hate the Jews, and the reason is I'm filled with totally irrational fears".
I never said I hated Jews, rationally or otherwise. In fact, I have said just the opposite: I usually get along with them better than other religionists, particularly Christians. I invite Jews to my discussion forum, so far as I know the only place that H-Believers and H-Deniers can come in peace. Neither side is too terribly interested in discussing with the other in my experience; hopefully that can change.
Considering that you consistently imply the holocaust did not take place,
I've never said that "it didn't take place." I've complained about catchall or indefinable definitions being applied to "it," and the use of the Big-H in postwar Hate propaganda.
defend the rationale behind nazi policies (such as you see it as being)
How can one understand conflict without understanding even the enemy? And not propaganda views of the enemy but the enemy as the enemy rationally sees himself. My position is that there is plenty of blame to go around and that the Allied cause was not entirely pure and noble. If we learn anything from conflict we should learn that "it takes two to tango" and that nothing is ever entirely sketched, nor only in black-and-white.
and have not to my knowledge uttered one word indicating that you have much of a problem with nazi racial policies or practice,
Then you have not been paying attention. I have consistently, and for as long as I've been posting on this forum, said that I disagree with single-party states and that the 1935 Nuremberg Race Laws "went too far" and set the stage for a tragedy once war came. That tragedy would not have occurred save for the war, but just the same, I've always condemned the race laws.
I'm relatively justified in thinking of you as an anti-semite whatever definition you prefer to adhere to yourself. If that is an impression you want to avoid, why don't you start by answering, f.e., Beppos perfectly reasonable question?
I thought I did answer it. I tend to be independent-minded and anti-authoritarian in outlook, so I would not readily "narc" on anybody unless it were a safety issue, whether it were drugs or bootleg Jews. If they were agents of an enemy government then, yes, I would call the police/Gestapo, whatever, same as any other Fifth Column, as long as it were a "clear and present danger," like I said. And as also explained before, if I were an officer, German or otherwise, approached to join a treasonable plot, then I would notify whatever counterintelligence authorities immediately (unless it were a family member or dear friend, in which case I would warn them once that any further talk will be reported to the authorities). Is anything still not clear about this?
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 26 Sep 2003, 00:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Scott Smith
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#124

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 22:22

Beppo Schmidt wrote:
Like I said, I think it is a false-dilemma, one manufactured by Hollywood and novelists.
What more blatant Holocaust denial do the moderators need? This forum needs to be de-loused. And before anyone gives me a "warning" about personal insults, I will call Scott Smith and anyone else exactly what they are.
The dilemma, my dear plastic-spoon generation pseudo-German, is that it is not simply a question of treason or thus:
Beppo wrote:So every German just has to sit down and shut up while their Jewish friend/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife is hauled away to Auschwitz, never to be seen again? Someone who tries to protect persecuted Jews is a traitor and no longer a "true German"?
This certainly happened in the movies. However, former forum poster Goggi said that he and his mother witnessed Jews being taken off to internment camps and were very sad. They did not become traitors, however; they still supported Germany and their government while disagreeing with some policies.

Presumably some Americans saw Japanese rounded-up and sent to internment camps. Did any of them become traitors? Like I said, it is a false-dilemma. And like the Germans, probably most Americans did not even know that Jews/Japanese were interned during the war. There were not many Jews left living in Germany by the time war started.

So the scenario you have described is a classic red-herring. It has jack-diddly to do with the treason/murders of Stauffenberg and his ilk. The thread is entitled "July Plotters." Not disgrunted religious fanatics or draft dodging students. But all heroes by Bundestablishment standards.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 26 Sep 2003, 00:25, edited 4 times in total.

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#125

Post by CHRISCHA » 25 Sep 2003, 22:26

I've always stayed clear of these discussions, partially because I feel out of my depth, and partially because I would use opinion rather than source.

What I would add though is I feel Scott Smiths post are fustrating, but from an outside point of view, he plays devils advocate. What I mean by that is he answers posts in a way that makes one think, rather than going with the flow.

I have re-thought my opinions of crimes and certainly the holocaust since reading some of Scott's post, but I have the same opinion, the holocaust happened, the Nazis were persecutors I just understand how it happened better. Before I had followed the standard explenation.

I don't think Mr Smith is a denier, I think he helps us see things from both sides of the argument. The flip side being I think he would defend the Jews if we all constantly argued against them.

If I'm talking nonsense, please correct me Scott.

By the way, my fustration against you would have been more apparent earlier. :) t

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Qvist
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#126

Post by Qvist » 25 Sep 2003, 22:31

Deleted post concerning issue that had already been addressed by the time it was posted.

cheers
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#127

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 22:31

CHRISCHA wrote:If I'm talking nonsense, please correct me Scott.
I told Roberto once that the Nazis probably wouldn't like me because I'm too independent-minded. They would have to seduce me with a lot of leadership potential to get me to be a team player. I don't go with the flow much.
:wink:

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#128

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 22:36

Qvist wrote:
Scott wrote:Like I said, I think it is a false-dilemma, one manufactured by Hollywood and novelists.
In what sense exactly is this a false dilemma? There were Germans with Jewish friends or spouses, and there were Germans that at least knew that terrible things of some sort happened to the Jews somewhere out East. There were Germans who knew more than that. And there was no German who hadn't been asleep for the past decade that could possibly avoid knowing that Jews were persecuted is some way or other.

Why do I bother though. If you're actually willing to post something as lame as that , you are obviously willing to go far to avoid giving the straight answer that can anyway be inferred from your reply. Smith, you are beneath contempt.
Your premise that opposition to the regime centered around persecution (or worse, from murder to soapmaking) of the Jews is flawed. The German Widerstand is almost nonexistent. It is a mythology developed to make "good Germans" out of the familiar "bad Germans" of wartime propaganda from two world wars.

Your black/white dichotomy is a product of Hollywood history and amateur historiography. Perhaps I should call it the "Sophie's Choice" school of historiography.
:)

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witness
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#129

Post by witness » 25 Sep 2003, 22:46

Smith .As usual it is you who is talking nonsense .
"Independent thinking " :lol: ? You wish .. You cling to your encapsulating set of beliefs and ,no logic, no arguments would ever be sufficient to move you out of it.
Beppo asked you a very direct question . You obviously can not answer it honestly ( So you really deserve to be called an intellectually dishonest person ), dodging with your
lame sop " False dilemma ".. :roll:
There is nothing false about Beppo's question and you know it .
Pardon me but your slippery evasion tactics is just disgusting..
Maybe because of this the strong word "worm " was mentioned...
Last edited by witness on 25 Sep 2003, 23:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Qvist
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#130

Post by Qvist » 25 Sep 2003, 22:50

I never said I hated Jews, rationally or otherwise. In fact, I have said just the opposite: I usually get along with them better than other religionists, particularly Christians. I invite Jews to my discussion forum, so far as I know the only place that H-Believers and H-Deniers can come in peace. Neither side is too terribly interested in discussing with the other in my experience; hopefully that can change.
I know you haven't said that. If you did, you'd be out of here before you could say "nuremberg", and you know it. Apart from this, I see little need to repeat my words stated above.
I've never said that "it didn't take place." I've complained about catchall or indefinable definitions being applied to "it," and the use of the Big-H in postwar Hate propaganda.
I know you haven't. Again, if you did, you'd be out of here before etc etc. But considering that the sum total of your approach to the project is to heap ridicule on the specific aspects of it as they emerge, it amounts to pretty much the same thing. In any case, why argue? All you need to do is say that you don't doubt that the Holocaust took place, and nobody will bother you any more about that particular issue. After all, this is the way normal people clarify things if they have been misunderstood....
How can one understand conflict without understanding even the enemy? And not propaganda views of the enemy but the enemy as the enemy rationally sees himself. My position is that there is plenty of blame to go around and that the Allied cause was not entirely pure and noble. If we learn anything from conflict we should learn that "it takes two to tango" and that nothing is ever entirely sketched only in black-and-white.
Fine words. It's just that they are completely inapplicable to your writing. They imply balance and even-handedness. If there is one thing you do not possess, it is that.
Then you have not been paying attention. I have consistently, and for as long as I've been posting on this forum, said that I disagree with single-party states and that the 1935 Nuremberg Race Laws "went too far" and set the stage for a tragedy once war came. That tragedy would not have occurred save for the war, but just the same, I've always condemned the race laws.
Again, inapliccability and lack of correlation with what you actually write. And the Nuremberg Laws "went too far"? Wow, that's pretty strong condemnation. You're pretty good at invective when it comes to the resistance, Britain, the US, historiography and several other things, why don't I see you using them here?
thought I did answer it. I tend to be independent-minded and anti-authoritarian in outlook, so I would not readily "narc" on anybody unless it were a safety issue, whether it were drugs or bootleg Jews. If they were agents of an enemy government then, yes, I would call the police/Gestapo, whatever, same as any other Fifth Column, as long as it were a "clear and present danger," like I said. And as also explained before, if I were an officer, German or otherwise, approached to join a treasonable plot, then I would notify whatever counterintelligence authorities immediately (unless it were a family member or dear friend, in which case I would warn them once that any further talk will be reported to the authorities). Is anything still not clear about this
I was not referring to this question. However, I see you have answered it in another post, though your answer of course amounts basically to drawing away from the issue - which was that the persecution of Jews constituted an entirely legitimate reason for any German to turn against the regime. Of course, most sane people would say that it constituted an Imperative to do just that if there was a degree of knowledge about actual goings on, but to you, this is, of course, treason.

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Scott Smith
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#131

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 23:12

witness wrote:Smith .As usual it is you who is talking nonsense ...
Witness, you're out of your depth, as usual. Try inflating a plastic duck next time.

Goggi never faced any dilemma. And he and his Mom witnessed such an event for real.

History is not a "Sophie's Choice" of Good or Evil, ergo an assassination attempt. That is absurd.
:)

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Scott Smith
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#132

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Sep 2003, 23:20

Qvist wrote:that the persecution of Jews constituted an entirely legitimate reason for any German to turn against the regime.
Maybe to emigrate if one were a Jew or a bruised intellectual like Thomas Mann, but to commit treason in wartime, NO.
Of course, most sane people would say that it constituted an Imperative to do just that if there was a degree of knowledge about actual goings on, but to you, this is, of course, treason.
Sane? That would be quite insane on many different levels. For one thing, all world history doesn't revolve around the soap opera of the Jews--except in Hollywood, of course, and in popular novels. The idea is as absurd as Americans against FDR over the internment of the Japs after Pearl Harbor, let alone an assassination attempt. And "imperative"? Talk about teleological and didactic history.
:roll:

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witness
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#133

Post by witness » 25 Sep 2003, 23:57

Scott Smith wrote: Try inflating a plastic duck next time.
I trust it is your favorite occupation besides your Hitler-kissing.
You were asked a simple question - whether with your set of beliefs if you lived in Nazi Germany you would turn in a known to you Jew to Gestapo or not.Simple as that .
You keep on dodging - So I gather that you would of course .
And yes there are Evil men in history -those who caused death to throngs of innocent people such as Ivan the Terrible ,Stalin ,Pol Pot and your favorite corporal.
To deny this is nothing else but ordinary moral relativism.

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#134

Post by David Thompson » 26 Sep 2003, 00:09

Scott -- Thanks for those references.

Everyone -- Please discuss the issues. If you must refer to individual posters, avoid personal insults.

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Scott Smith
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#135

Post by Scott Smith » 26 Sep 2003, 00:22

witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: Try inflating a plastic duck next time.
I trust it is favorite occupation besides your Hitler-kissing.
You were asked a simple question - whether with your set of beliefs if you lived in Nazi Germany you would turn in a known to you Jew to Gestapo or not.Simple as that .
You keep on dodging - So I gather that you would of course .
And yes there are Evil men in history -those who caused death to throngs of innocent people such as Ivan the Terrible ,Stalin ,Pol Pot and your favorite corporal.
To deny this is nothing else but ordinary moral relativism.
I already answered the question. The person would be no concern of mine unless I believed for some reason that he were an enemy agent--in which case I would call the cops.
:)

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