July plotters

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witness
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#136

Post by witness » 26 Sep 2003, 00:33

Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: Try inflating a plastic duck next time.
I trust it is favorite occupation besides your Hitler-kissing.
You were asked a simple question - whether with your set of beliefs if you lived in Nazi Germany you would turn in a known to you Jew to Gestapo or not.Simple as that .
You keep on dodging - So I gather that you would of course .
And yes there are Evil men in history -those who caused death to throngs of innocent people such as Ivan the Terrible ,Stalin ,Pol Pot and your favorite corporal.
To deny this is nothing else but ordinary moral relativism.
I already answered the question. The person would be no concern of mine unless I believed for some reason that he were an enemy agent--in which case I would call the cops.
But in this case you contradict yourself. You keep on saying that the Jews were considered to be the enemies of Germany
So according to you logic without being an agent a Jew was already
an enemy by virtue of his birth and therefore it would be your duty to turn him in . :)
If this person " would be no concern of " yours ,then again according to your own logic you would committ a treason. :)

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Scott Smith
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#137

Post by Scott Smith » 26 Sep 2003, 00:47

witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:I already answered the question. The person would be no concern of mine unless I believed for some reason that he were an enemy agent--in which case I would call the cops.
But in this case you contradict yourself. You keep on saying that the Jews were considered to be the enemies of Germany
So according to you logic without being an agent a Jew was already
an enemy by virtue of his birth and therefore it would be your duty to turn him in . :)
If this person " would be no concern of " yours ,then again according to your own logic you would committ a treason. :)
No, I said that the German government considered Jews to be the enemy of Germany. In wartime there was some basis for that considering that they were certainly (and understandably so) not friendly to a German victory. But some Jews and Mischlinge survived the war without being molested. Furthermore, it was not a German's duty to play cops and robbers but only to report suspicious activity, same as anyone. The equation of Blitz Maidens and Civil Defense block wardens (who hustled reluctant people into air-raid shelters) as though they were some sort of a citizen's secret police, as Shirer and others do, is absurd. I can't think of anyone tried for treason in Friesler's or anyone else's court for failing to call the police if he knew that a Jew was not wearing his yellow star, which branded him as an alien and did not in any case guarantee deportation, let alone death or murder.

Bottom Line: They didn't try to kill Hitler (and succeed in blowing-up many good officers like General Korten) just because a Jewish minority was compelled to wear yellow stars or even being deported.
:)


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Beppo Schmidt
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#138

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 26 Sep 2003, 01:31

Bottom Line: They didn't try to kill Hitler (and succeed in blowing-up many good officers like General Korten) just because a Jewish minority was compelled to wear yellow stars or even being deported.
How about being murdered by the millions?

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Scott Smith
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#139

Post by Scott Smith » 26 Sep 2003, 05:09

Beppo Schmidt wrote:
Scott wrote:Bottom Line: They didn't try to kill Hitler (and succeed in blowing-up many good officers like General Korten) just because a Jewish minority was compelled to wear yellow stars or even being deported.
How about being murdered by the millions?
At best you're looking backwards, not evaluating people and their decisions based on what they knew and their rationale. An assassin's motives do not become pure even if it is later discovered that the person he killed (or in this case, attempted to kill, only thereby killing others) was actually a badder dude than the assassin thought. Secondly, tens of millions died in WWII. The lives of a few million Jews do not trump every thing and every one.
:)

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Back on topic

#140

Post by Sgt D. » 26 Sep 2003, 05:48

OK, I don't know if this opinion on the *original topic* has been stated yet ( I skipped pages 2-8 ), but to get this thread back to the *orignal topic*, here's my opinion on the July plot to assassinate Hitler.

I am only going to render judgment on von Stauffenberg for now. I don't really know that much about the specifics of the plot, just what is generally regarded as common knowledge.

Of the plot itself and those conspiring to assassinate Hitler, whether it is treason or patriotism is impossible to tell. Where should one's loyalties lie when it comes to patriotic duty and nationalism?
-To your country itself?
OR
-To the leader of your country to whom you have personally sworn an oath of loyalty to?
I guess it boils down to patriotism vs honour.

Right, on to von Stauffenberg.
Coward was the first word that wanted to cross my lips, but I could never use that word about someone who, after keeping his nerve passing by SS guards, personally places the bomb under Hitler's desk, and then leaves past those same SS guards, trying to remain calm and cool the whole time. That must have been nerve-wracking! I can't imagine a more frightening task.

HOWEVER, if von Stauffenberg's intent was nothing more than the rescue of his country and his people from Hitler, I can't help but thinking that, if one was TRULY committed to this noble cause, HE WOULD HAVE REMAINED BY HITLER'S SIDE WITH THE BOMB RIGHT UP UNTIL THE VERY END. Boom! Guaranteed success.

The fact that he left the bomb there and escaped with his life (albeit temporarily) tells me there were other things he held in equal value with his country and his people.

He did something I could never do though, so in that regard, he has my utmost respect.

Cheers,

Nick

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July 20 Plotters

#141

Post by Hansloader » 26 Sep 2003, 06:00

The actions of a psychologicaly traumatized and deficient assassin has no connection or association with minorities as determined here.

The greatest possible crime is to attempt to kill one's leader in time of war. This applies to every nation. Stauffenberg is no hero, and can never be, in the correct sense of the terminology.

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#142

Post by walterkaschner » 26 Sep 2003, 06:50

Beppo Schmidt wrote:
I might not personally agree with Junior Bush's wars, mainly because I think the threat is blown out of proportion, but to plan an assassination attempt as a result of an unpopular war? There is nothing noble about these guys.
General Ludwig Beck, Pastor Dietrich Bonhöffer, and Admiral Wilhelm Canaris had been plotting against Hitler before WWII even started. They were primarily motivated by his treatment of the Jews, not the war which did not even exist yet.
IMHO disagreement with the recent U.S. war against Iraq simply bears no comparison with disagreement with continuation of Germany's war against the Allies, which, in the opinion of many of the military plotters, was hopelessly lost after the 1941-42 Winter, and by virtually all after the Normandy invasion. Scott Smith's analogy in this regard is specious to the nth degree.

On the other hand, I can't agree with Beppo Schmidt's response. As I tried to point out in a previous post on this thread, the German Resistance to Hitler was by no means monolithic in its motivations - they differed from individual to individual, and even, I suspect, varied with time both in substance and intensity in the case of many of the individuals concerned.

As to Colonel-General Beck, I find it impossible to believe that his primary motive for opposition stemmed from the treatment of the Jews. I know of no evidence that Beck was particularly moved by the Nuremberg laws against the Jews, or by the events of Kristallnacht. Indeed, I suspect that he may well have shared in a form of antisemitism which in my opinion was probably prevalent to some degree in most Germans of his age, class and profession at the time. But being antisemitic does not, of course, necessarily mean that he was unmoved by the Nazis' treatment of the Jews, or that he agreed with it. Yet I think Beck's primary motivation for opposing Hitler was that he believed Hitler's willingness in 1938 to go to war over the Sudetenland destined Germany to an armed conflict in which she could not possibly prevail. This led to his outspoken opposition as Chief of the General Staff to Hitler's plans for the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938, and his resultant resignation. Although Beck's belief in the stiffness of the Anglo-French spine on that occasion was obviously unjustified, he was ultimately proved correct in his belief that Hitler was headed toward a war which Germany could not win.

Scott Smith's notion that:
His [Beck's] opposition to the regime hinged on the political usurpation of the autonomy of the General Staff; he would have had difficulty serving a kaiser loyally if there had been too much interference in military tradition, let alone an Austrian corporal.
has, I believe, a grain of truth (albeit mighty small) in it, but at the time of the great upheaval and reorganization of the German Wehrmacht in the wake of the Blomberg and Fritsch "scandals" in early 1938, Beck refused the urging of Halder and others to call for an assembly of the senior Army officers to denounce Hitler's actions, stating that "Mutiny and revolution are not words to be found in a German officer's dictionary." Six years and a disasterous war later Beck's mind was changed.

As to Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, here too I do not believe that the treatment of the Jews was, at least initially, his primary motive in opposition to Hitler, although I strongly suspect that it was probably one of several underlying motives, and became stronger as the oppression of the Jews intensified. Bonhoeffer's antipathy toward the Nazis was based on profoundly religious grounds; he felt early on that Hitler was an "antichrist", as I too think he certainly was, in that he took upon himself the title of "Führer" and attempted to denigrate and belittle the Church (both Catholic and Protestant) and particulary its teaching as to the necessary supremacy of Christ and Christ's way for the salvation of mankind. I have read much of Bonhoeffer's writings, and can recall nothing that would suggest that he was specifically concerned with Hitler's treatment of the Jews as such. His primary concern was with the obligation which God, through Jesus Christ, imposed upon us all: to arise and follow his teachings. See, e. g., Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship (MacMillian Paperbacks, 1963).

Was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as Scott Smith would have it, simply a "religious fanatic"? Well, if I recall correctly, Scott has proclaimed his aetheism, or at least agnosticism, on this Forum on several occasions in the past, and so I would suppose that anyone of that persuasion would consider a devout Christian as a "fanatic." In the interest of full disclosure, I must confess that I myself am a practicing Christian and so would probably be considered by Scott as a "fanatic". But the appelation of "fanatic" surely bears with it something more than a mere believer, or advocate, or even proselyter. IMHO it has a perjorative sense about it, a connotation of an unpricipled, unthinking, enthusiasm which leaves all considerations of moderation and decency shattered in its wake, and exhaults the ends acheived above any means adopted for that purpose. I would challenge anyone who has carefully read Bonhoeffer's Equity or The Cost of Discipleship to demonstate just how he was at all a "fanatic" in that sense. In the latter work, I read his Chapter 15, "The Hidden Righteousness" (op. cit. supra at 172-9) as a direct attack on fanaticism.

What about Admiral Canaris? Frankly, Canaris remains an enigma to me. In my mind, he was perhaps the most complicated individual involved, although always on the periphery, in the German Resistance. But I have come across no evidence that his actions (often ambiguous) in opposition to Hitler's goals were primarily, or indeed secondarily, motivated by his treatment of the Jews. Both Heinz Höhne's"Canaris: Hitler's Master Spy (Doubleday & Company, 1979) nor David Kahn's Hitler's Spies: German Military Intelligence in World War II (Macmillan Publishing Company, 1978) presents any evidence suggesting otherwise. My best guess, for what it may be worth, is that Canaris' leanings toward opposition to Hitler commenced at the time of the Sudentenland Crisis of 1938, but that his feelings were ambiguous and that much of the antiNazi activities of the Abwehr were carried on without his direct knowledge or direction - Canaris seemed to be playing the role of the famous three monkeys: hear no evil; speak no evil; see no evil. I think that to the bitter end, Canaris was loyal to Hitler, but believed that the evil lay in his subordinates; Goering, Himmler, Bornman, Goebbels etc. But who really knows?

Sorry, this is untimely, too long, but something I needed to get off my chest.

Regards, Kaschner

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#143

Post by Qvist » 26 Sep 2003, 08:49

David; I do not think you can reasonably expect people to avoid what would normally be considered insulting language and discuss politely when confronted with the sort of things Scott posts. For my part, I do not consider what I've written inappropriate.

I note, Scott, that you did not avail yourself of the opportunity to clear up any misunderstanding that may have existed with regard to you denial of the Holocaust.

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#144

Post by Qvist » 26 Sep 2003, 08:53

The actions of a psychologicaly traumatized and deficient assassin has no connection or association with minorities as determined here.
"Psychologically traumatized and deficient" - that's a new one. I would be grateful for some elucidation on that?

cheers

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#145

Post by Qvist » 26 Sep 2003, 09:01

In wartime there was some basis for that considering that they were certainly (and understandably so) not friendly to a German victory.
In other words, it was reasonable to regard the Jews as the enemy, the reason being that they did not desire a German victory, which was again caused by the fact that the German state regarded them as the enemy to begin with. Game, set and match to Adolf.

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#146

Post by Qvist » 26 Sep 2003, 09:20

Bottom Line: They didn't try to kill Hitler (and succeed in blowing-up many good officers like General Korten) just because a Jewish minority was compelled to wear yellow stars or even being deported.
That's all that happened to them, was it?

Walter is of course absolutely right in that the motivations of the various segments of opposition was diverse, and that resistance to anti-semitism was not generally primary among them. Scott's argument is however of an entirely different ilk - basically, that it was not present at all, more, that it couldn't have been, because none of the plotters could have known what really happened to the Jews (or possibly that nothing fundamentally worse than deportion DID happen to the Jews, as usual this is a bit ambiguous) and, more yet, that even if they did, they would still be just traitors. The first two are of course simply wrong, and as for the third, well, I think you know what I think about that.

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#147

Post by Scott Smith » 26 Sep 2003, 15:26

walterkaschner wrote:IMHO disagreement with the recent U.S. war against Iraq simply bears no comparison with disagreement with continuation of Germany's war against the Allies, which, in the opinion of many of the military plotters, was hopelessly lost after the 1941-42 Winter, and by virtually all after the Normandy invasion. Scott Smith's analogy in this regard is specious to the nth degree.
Well, it's not a perfect analogy; for one thing no war has been declared. But attempting to assassinate the President during the the "War on Terrah" would probably be viewed as treason just the same. Going to pray with the Taliban would be considered treason at least.
:)

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#148

Post by Scott Smith » 26 Sep 2003, 15:28

Qvist wrote:I note, Scott, that you did not avail yourself of the opportunity to clear up any misunderstanding that may have existed with regard to you denial of the Holocaust.
A major red-herring, which has been discussed many times before on this forum, and is absolutely unrelated to nutters like von Stauffenberg.
:)

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#149

Post by Scott Smith » 26 Sep 2003, 15:32

Qvist wrote:
Scott wrote:Bottom Line: They didn't try to kill Hitler (and succeed in blowing-up many good officers like General Korten) just because a Jewish minority was compelled to wear yellow stars or even being deported.
That's all that happened to them, was it?

Walter is of course absolutely right in that the motivations of the various segments of opposition was diverse, and that resistance to anti-semitism was not generally primary among them. Scott's argument is however of an entirely different ilk - basically, that it was not present at all, more, that it couldn't have been, because none of the plotters could have known what really happened to the Jews (or possibly that nothing fundamentally worse than deportion DID happen to the Jews, as usual this is a bit ambiguous) and, more yet, that even if they did, they would still be just traitors. The first two are of course simply wrong, and as for the third, well, I think you know what I think about that.
The generals didn't give a crap about the Jews. Nobody did. Not until it became a bloody stump to beat the Germans with at Nuremberg and waving the bloody shirt today. The Bundestablishment dodges the whole issue with the Widerstand mythos and by making some religionists at odds with the Kulturkampf (only tangentially related to the Jews) into more historical significance than is justified.
:)

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#150

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 26 Sep 2003, 21:07

David; I do not think you can reasonably expect people to avoid what would normally be considered insulting language and discuss politely when confronted with the sort of things Scott posts. For my part, I do not consider what I've written inappropriate.
As I said before, I will call Scott Smith and everyone else exactly what they are, and to be perfectly frank, it is just too bad if someone else doesn't like that. I call a spade a spade and a worm a worm.

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