Acts of Chivalry and Honour

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Mauser K98k
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#16

Post by Mauser K98k » 28 Mar 2004, 04:02

Adolf Galland has always been one of my heroes. His sense of chivalry is legendary.
Chivalry was far from dead in WWII, even if it was relegated mainly to combat pilots. Galland was a passionate believer in fair play. When Goering felt him out in 1941 regarding a hypothetical order to shoot at parachuting enemy pilots, Galland exploded with indignation.

"I should regard such an order as murder," he told Goering, "and I would do everything in my power to disobey such an order." Happily, the order never came. Unfortunately, the same assurances cannot be given concerning American fighter pilots, who actually were ordered to do so in the case of parachuting Me-262 pilots.

Galland's chivalry is clear in his wartime encounter on the ground with Wing Commander (later Group Captain) Douglas Bader, the legless RAF ace. Shot down with several squadron mates in a melee over the Pas de Calais, Bader fell into German hands. Galland was one of the German pilots scoring kills in that action, but the wildness of the engagement made it impossible to determine Bader's conqueror.

Like many British officers of the time, Bader was quite conscious of rank and was aware that NCOs had taken part in the action. He was anxious to know who had shot him down. Galland assured him that an officer had taken his measure, and a suitable German candidate was selected as the "fall guy" and introduced.

Unfortunately, in parachuting from his plane Bader had damaged his artificial legs, and asked for a spare set to be sent from England. Galland forwarded his request with a recommendation for approval, and safe conduct was offered for the aircraft bringing the legs. Sadly, the British concept of chivalry had worn thin after the bombing of London, so the RAF dropped Bader's legs along with some bombs targetting on the airfields of JG-26!!

As an interesting aside, Bader was allowed to sit in the cockpit of an Me-109, and even asked permission to fly it around the field a couple of times. Galland was courteous, but denied the request.....


Source: Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe, Col. Raymond T. Toliver and Trevor J. Constable. Aero Publishers Inc., 1977.

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Eden Zhang
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#17

Post by Eden Zhang » 28 Mar 2004, 04:23

Another Rommel-act of chivalry, or stubborness?: he refused to shoot the french foreign legionairs defending a fort in the desert of Libia, although these Legionairs were germans.
I'm not too sure what you mean, but:

French Foreign Legion soldiers are to put their allegence to the Legion beyond their nationality. In fact, Legionaires are to expect that they may well have to fight their countrymen at some time.

They probabaly weren't considered "Traitors" because they had no allegence to the German army in the first place, and most likely joined the legion before WW2.


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Piet Duits
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#18

Post by Piet Duits » 28 Mar 2004, 06:23

Hi,

You are correct, it's true. Only Hitler didn't see that. All he saw were german soldiers fighting against germans. That these guys went to join the Legion before the war began wasn't important.
So, as a result, he did consider these german legionairs as traitors, and they had to be shot.

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#19

Post by Jon G. » 28 Mar 2004, 09:00

Eden Zhang wrote:
Another Rommel-act of chivalry, or stubborness?: he refused to shoot the french foreign legionairs defending a fort in the desert of Libia, although these Legionairs were germans.
I'm not too sure what you mean, but:

French Foreign Legion soldiers are to put their allegence to the Legion beyond their nationality. In fact, Legionaires are to expect that they may well have to fight their countrymen at some time.

They probabaly weren't considered "Traitors" because they had no allegence to the German army in the first place, and most likely joined the legion before WW2.
Many of the soldiers serving in the Afrika Korps' Afrika Division (later the 90th light division) were German ex-legionnaires. I wonder how they would feel at fighting their former fellow legionnaires?

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kmk24
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#20

Post by kmk24 » 28 Mar 2004, 09:57

1944 at Tali - Ihantala battle there was finnish squad walking along road (can't remember this accuret please finns correct if I wrong) when suddenly a soviet soldier carried wounded finn from forrest near by and droped him in front of finnish soldiers. Someone of the finns shouted 'shoot him', when the leader of finnish squad pointed his suomi smg at that shouter and said 'why don't you just try and do it' or some thing like that.

Kai

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Eden Zhang
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#21

Post by Eden Zhang » 28 Mar 2004, 10:48

I wonder how they would feel at fighting their former fellow legionnaires?
Considering the fact that the Legion trained them to be unflinching even when fighting their own countrymen, I'd assume that they'd apply the same principles to fighting the Legion.

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Piet Duits
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#22

Post by Piet Duits » 28 Mar 2004, 10:57

Besides this, I'd guess you forget quickly that the person on the other side is a fellow-countryman when he points a weapon at you and fires.
No consideration about background while in battle!

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Juha Hujanen
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#23

Post by Juha Hujanen » 28 Mar 2004, 12:13

Piet Duits wrote:
Shrek wrote:One of the Italian frogmen who participated in the December 1941 attack on Alexandria, which sank the warships Valiant and Queen Elizabeth was decorated for this deed in 1943 (after Italy had changed sides) by the British captain of the Valiant!
Well, this is sick. To decorate somebody who sank your own ship is not right.
How many crewmembers were killed in the sinking? What did they get?
Maybe I am missing the point, but in my opinion it is a disgrace of the decoration.
That Italian frogman was Luigi Durand de la Penne.When he was captured,he refused to tell where the explosives were attached.He was placed in arrest in ship armoury and he had placed the explosives right under that place.Few English guards were with him.10-20 minutes before sceduled explosion,Penne demanted to meet the Captain.He said that soon the explosives will go off and he advised to gather crew to deck.
Penne refused to tell where the explositions were and he was placed to armoury this time without guards.He survived the exlosition and so did many English sailors,because many of them were ordered to deck from inner parts of ship.
That medal sure did go to right man.

Cheers/Juha

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Lupo Solitario
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#24

Post by Lupo Solitario » 28 Mar 2004, 19:34

Juha Hujanen wrote:
Piet Duits wrote:
Shrek wrote:One of the Italian frogmen who participated in the December 1941 attack on Alexandria, which sank the warships Valiant and Queen Elizabeth was decorated for this deed in 1943 (after Italy had changed sides) by the British captain of the Valiant!
Well, this is sick. To decorate somebody who sank your own ship is not right.
How many crewmembers were killed in the sinking? What did they get?
Maybe I am missing the point, but in my opinion it is a disgrace of the decoration.
That Italian frogman was Luigi Durand de la Penne.When he was captured,he refused to tell where the explosives were attached.He was placed in arrest in ship armoury and he had placed the explosives right under that place.Few English guards were with him.10-20 minutes before sceduled explosion,Penne demanted to meet the Captain.He said that soon the explosives will go off and he advised to gather crew to deck.
Penne refused to tell where the explositions were and he was placed to armoury this time without guards.He survived the exlosition and so did many English sailors,because many of them were ordered to deck from inner parts of ship.
That medal sure did go to right man.

Cheers/Juha
correct, I add that the named decoration was italian. Commander Morgan (IIRC his name) asked to have the honour to give it to Durand de la Penne

Always about Italian Navy, I want to remember Commander Salvatore Todaro who, having sunk a cargo in Middle Atlantic, decided to tow with his submarine the cargo crew until Canarian Islands.

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Beppo Schmidt
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#25

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 28 Mar 2004, 19:44

During Operation Market-Garden Waffen-SS General Wilhelm Bittrich agreed to the British proposal of a 2-hour ceasefire during which time his forces actively aided the British in the care of wounded from both sides, proving that the Waffen-SS was not made up 100% of ruthless criminals...

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DrG
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#26

Post by DrG » 29 Mar 2004, 16:32

Lupo Solitario wrote:Always about Italian Navy, I want to remember Commander Salvatore Todaro who, having sunk a cargo in Middle Atlantic, decided to tow with his submarine the cargo crew until Canarian Islands.
On 15 October 1940 the Italian submarine Cappellini sunk with its gun the Belgian cargo Kabalo. Then the Commander Todaro transported the 26 members of the crew to the Azores (at a distance of 750 nautical miles). All the voyage, 4 days and 4 nights, was made in emersion because there wasn't room for 26 people within the sub.

PS The Belgian govern in exile used this attack as a pretext to declare war on Italy, even though the Kabalo was transporting war materiel and was in service for the British Merchant Navy.

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cuski
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The Laconia incident

#27

Post by cuski » 29 Mar 2004, 20:57

I couldn't remember the exact name of this, but upon doing a little bit a research - found that's it's mainly a story about U-156 and the Laconia British Liner.
At 10pm on September 12, 1942, U-156 was patrolling off the coast of West Africa midway between Liberia and Ascension Island. The sub's commanding officer, Kapitänleutnant Werner Hartenstein, spotted a large British liner sailing alone and attacked.

At 10:22pm the liner, sailing under the name Laconia, transmitted the following message on the 600-meter band

SSS SSS 0434 South / 1125 West Laconia torpeded
As the ship began to sink, Hartenstein surfaced, hoping to capture the ship's senior officers, and was appalled to see over two thousand people struggling in the water. The 20,000-ton liner Laconia was carrying not only her regular crew of 136 but also some 80 civilians, military material and 268 British soldiers, and about 1800 Italian prisoners of war with 160 Polish soldiers on guard.

Hartenstein immediately began rescue operations. Laconia sank at 11:23pm. At 1:25am September 13 Hartenstein sent a coded radio message to Befehlshaber der Unterseeboote (Commander-in-Chief for Submarines) alerting them to the situation. It read:

Versenkt von Hartenstein Brite "Laconia". Marinequadrat FF 7721 310 Grad. Leider mit 1500 italienischen Kriegsgefangenen. Bisher 90 gefischt. 157 cbm. 19 Aale, Passat 3, erbitte Befehle.
Sunk by Hartenstein British "Laconia". Grid FF 7721 310 degrees. Unfortunately with 1500 Italian POWs. So far 90 fished. 157 cubic meters (of oil). 19 eels (slang for torpedoes), trade wind 3, ask for orders.

Head of submarine operations, Admiral Karl Dönitz immediately ordered two other submarines to divert to the scene. Soon U-156 was crammed above and below decks with nearly two hundred survivors including five women, and had another 200 in tow aboard four lifeboats. At 6am on September 13 Hartenstein broadcast a message on the 25-meter band in plain English to all shipping in the area giving his position, requesting assistance with the rescue effort and promising not to attack. It read:

If any ship will assist the ship-wrecked "Laconia" crew, I will not attack providing I am not being attacked by ship or air forces. I picked up 193 men. 4, 53 South, 11, 26 West. --German submarine.
U-156 remained on the surface at the scene for the next two and a half days. At 11:30am on September 15, she was joined by U-506 commanded by Kptlt. Erich Würdeman and a few hours later by both U-507 under Korvettenkapitän Harro Schacht and the Italian submarine Cappellini. The four submarines with lifeboats in tow and hundreds of survivors standing on the hulls headed towards the African coastline and a rendezvous with Vichy French surface warships which had set out from Senegal and Dahomey.

The next morning, September 16, at 11:25am, the four submarines, with Red Cross flags draped across their gun decks, were spotted by an American B-24 Liberator bomber from Ascension Island. Hartenstein signalled to the pilot requesting assistance. Lieutenant James D. Harden USAAF turned away and notified his base of the situation. The senior officer on duty that day, Captain Robert C. Richardson III, replied with the order "Sink sub."

Harden flew back to the scene of the rescue effort and at 12:32pm attacked with bombs and depth charges. One landed among the lifeboats in tow behind U-156 while others straddled the submarine itself. Hartenstein cast adrift those lifeboats still afloat and ordered the survivors on his deck into the water. The submarines dived and escaped. Many hundreds of the Laconia survivors perished, but Vichy vessels managed to re-rescue about a thousand later that day. In all, some 1500 passengers survived. An English seaman, Tony Large, endured forty days adrift in an open life boat before he was finally picked up.

The Laconia incident had far-reaching consequences. Until then it was common for U-boats to assist torpedoed survivors with food, water and directions to the nearest land. Now that it was apparent that the Americans would attack rescue missions under the Red Cross flag, Dönitz ordered that rescues were prohibited; survivors were to be left in the sea.

Dönitz's "Laconia order" convicted him of war crimes at Nuremberg in 1946 despite the fact that American submarines in the Pacific operated under the same instructions.
"Copy and paste" from Wikipedia.

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#28

Post by Jon G. » 04 Apr 2004, 15:20

After the Japanese had sunken Force Z - the Repulse and the Prince of Wales in December 1941, some IJN planes returned and dropped floral wreaths on the water where the British ships went down, in recognition of the crews' bravery.

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cyberdaemon
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#29

Post by cyberdaemon » 04 Apr 2004, 18:39

i found a list of a members of a U-156
http://www.ubootwaffe.net/crews/crews.c ... oatnum=156

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redcoat
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#30

Post by redcoat » 04 Apr 2004, 22:37

Shrek wrote: One of the Italian frogmen who participated in the December 1941 attack on Alexandria, which sank the warships Valiant and Queen Elizabeth was decorated for this deed in 1943 (after Italy had changed sides) by the British captain of the Valiant!
The frogman in question was Commander Luigi Durand de la Penne, one of the most colourful, bravest and gallant men of WW2.
But he was not awarded any British medal for sinking HMS Valiant. The truth is he was awarded the highest Italian medal by the captain of HMS Valiant for services to the Allied cause.

When Italy changed sides in 1943 Commander de la Penne offered his services to the Allied cause, and in June 22, 1944 the Italian destroyer Greciale carried British Frogmen, along with Commander Luigi Durand de la Penne to La Spezia, a German controlled port. They entered the harbor and sank the damaged cruisers Gorizia and Bolzano .Which the Germans had planned to use as blockades of the harbor entrance.

For this involvement, Admiral Morgan tried to get him a British decoration, but at the time no awards were being given to Italian naval officers, as Britain was still officially at war with the Italian nation.

"However, in March 1945, Morgan hosted a visit by the Crown Prince of Italy when de la Penne received the Gold Medal of Valour – equivalent to the Victoria Cross.
"After the citation was read, and as de la Penne was stepping forward, the Crown Prince said to Morgan: 'Come on Morgan, this is your show!'
"Thus Morgan had the unique pleasure of presenting Italy's highest award for gallantry to the brave man who tried to sink his ship three years and three months before."

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