I trust you will not forget the SU-122 with the short 122mm gun as well.BIGpanzer wrote:...the series produced and widely used Soviet heavy SP guns were only full armored SU-152 (671 copies), ISU-152 and ISU-122 (4635 copies).
*Experimental SELF-PROPELLED GUNS of the Allies - help!*
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Michael Emrys
- Member
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 19:44
- Location: USA
Hello, Tom!
Thank you very much for the rare photos. I never saw them before and never heard about GAZ-75 SP gun.
But I made a small search in Internet, so what I found: GAZ-75 was a light SP gun, built as the single prototype in 1943.
Its specifications: light tank T-70 chassis; weight 14 t; crew 4 men; armament 85mm gun D-5S-85A (42 shells); armor up to 82 mm; engine 170 hp (2 x 85 hp GAZ-80); speed 30 km/h. GAZ-75 was not accepted by the army because of strong swinging during the fire and not very reliable twin-engine and suspension (overweight).
As for the D10 and D11 - I couldn't find any info about them, but those AFVs look like the armored tractors KhTZ-16 - 6 t (~90 were built in Kharkov in 1941 as self-made low-speed "tanks" and used during the battle of Kharkov). They were based on STZ-3 agricultural tractor chassis. But they were armed with 45mm gun mod.1934, not 76mm + 2 x MGs.
Nevertheless the vehicles you've posted had the 76,2mm regimental gun mod. 1927 in the rear + 2 x MGs. Never heard about such AFVs before. I can only suppose that those armored tractors were single prototypes, built around 1931, when such kind of work was made by Soviet engineers. As me seems D-10 was based on "Communar" chassis, D-11 - on S-60 "Stalinets" chassis (see my post about Soviet artillery tractors)
If you have another info about so-called D10 and D11, let me know, please
Regards, BIGpanzer
Thank you very much for the rare photos. I never saw them before and never heard about GAZ-75 SP gun.
But I made a small search in Internet, so what I found: GAZ-75 was a light SP gun, built as the single prototype in 1943.
Its specifications: light tank T-70 chassis; weight 14 t; crew 4 men; armament 85mm gun D-5S-85A (42 shells); armor up to 82 mm; engine 170 hp (2 x 85 hp GAZ-80); speed 30 km/h. GAZ-75 was not accepted by the army because of strong swinging during the fire and not very reliable twin-engine and suspension (overweight).
As for the D10 and D11 - I couldn't find any info about them, but those AFVs look like the armored tractors KhTZ-16 - 6 t (~90 were built in Kharkov in 1941 as self-made low-speed "tanks" and used during the battle of Kharkov). They were based on STZ-3 agricultural tractor chassis. But they were armed with 45mm gun mod.1934, not 76mm + 2 x MGs.
Nevertheless the vehicles you've posted had the 76,2mm regimental gun mod. 1927 in the rear + 2 x MGs. Never heard about such AFVs before. I can only suppose that those armored tractors were single prototypes, built around 1931, when such kind of work was made by Soviet engineers. As me seems D-10 was based on "Communar" chassis, D-11 - on S-60 "Stalinets" chassis (see my post about Soviet artillery tractors)
If you have another info about so-called D10 and D11, let me know, please
Regards, BIGpanzer
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 21 Apr 2005, 23:54, edited 4 times in total.
Hi.
And now some french SPGs from Chars-Francais:
AMR 33 with 37 mm gun:
SPG built by ACL with 135 mm gun:
Renault Z3 with 25 mm at-gun:
ARL 40 SPG with 75 mm gun:
Yours
tom!
And now some french SPGs from Chars-Francais:
AMR 33 with 37 mm gun:
SPG built by ACL with 135 mm gun:
Renault Z3 with 25 mm at-gun:
ARL 40 SPG with 75 mm gun:
Yours
tom!
Hi.
And finally some US-SPG from http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/:
T 77:
T 85:
T3 HMC:
T 24:
Yours
tom :
And finally some US-SPG from http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/:
T 77:
T 85:
T3 HMC:
T 24:
Yours
tom :
As for the Soviet SP AA gun, based on tractor, you've posted above. I know some info about it, but never saw its photo, only picture. Thank you again, dear tom!
That was SU-2, was built as single prototype in 1931 and based on "Kommunar 9GU" agricultural tractor chassis. Specifications: weight 10 t; crew 5 men; armament 76,2 mm field gun mod. 1902; armor 10 mm; engine 75 hp; speed 12 km/h. The special trailer for ammunition also existed. That was not really AA SP gun, but SP gun for infantry support.
As for the AA gun - the same design really existed and was built as single prototype in 1932 also on "Kommunar 9GU" chassis, but with 76,2mm AA gun mod. 1915/28 and without armor. 12 such SP guns were planned to produce, but Soviet engineers realized that agricultural tractor chassis were quite weak for the SP guns, also their speed was low.
AFAIK the Soviets also built in 1925 the experimental 76,2mm AA SP gun on "Daimler" tractor chassis (weight 10 t + 6,7 t trailer with 192 shells; crew 6 men).
That was SU-2, was built as single prototype in 1931 and based on "Kommunar 9GU" agricultural tractor chassis. Specifications: weight 10 t; crew 5 men; armament 76,2 mm field gun mod. 1902; armor 10 mm; engine 75 hp; speed 12 km/h. The special trailer for ammunition also existed. That was not really AA SP gun, but SP gun for infantry support.
As for the AA gun - the same design really existed and was built as single prototype in 1932 also on "Kommunar 9GU" chassis, but with 76,2mm AA gun mod. 1915/28 and without armor. 12 such SP guns were planned to produce, but Soviet engineers realized that agricultural tractor chassis were quite weak for the SP guns, also their speed was low.
AFAIK the Soviets also built in 1925 the experimental 76,2mm AA SP gun on "Daimler" tractor chassis (weight 10 t + 6,7 t trailer with 192 shells; crew 6 men).
Oh my God! So many new info from you 
Well, what I found just now:
1. Soviet SP gun NATI-CAKB was built in 1943 as single prototype. Had the serious technical problems with twin-engines and transmission, so it was even not tested! Based on light tanks T-70 and T-80 transmission and suspension; weight 10,5 t; crew 4 men; armor 15-35 mm; armament 76,2mm S-54 gun with 63 shells (not 57mm as you posted! I found the same photo); engine 100 hp (2 x GAZ-MM 50 hp); speed 35 km/h.
2. Soviet SU-80 had the another name SU-74D (SU-76D). It was based on experimental light SP gun SU-74B, but had US diesel. Built in 1943 as single prototype, because series production of SU-76M already started, also the foreign diesel made the series production very difficult.
Specifications: T-70 light tank chassis; weight 11,6 t; crew 4 men; armor 6-35 mm; armament 76,2mm F-34 gun with 71 shells; engine GMC 4-71 110 hp; speed 36 km/h; range 250 km.
3. Soviet ISU-152 mod. 1945 (object 704) was made as single prototype in 1945. It was based on IS-2 and IS-3 heavy tanks chassis and transmission. Specifications: weight 47,3 t; crew 5 men; armament 152,4mm cannon-howitzer ML-20SM mod. 1944 with 20 shells + 2 x 12,7mm MGs; armor 20-120 mm; engine 520 hp; speed 37 km/h; range 220 km. The main disadvantage - not comfortable conditions for the crew because of small cabin, driver's sitting located near the gun.
Regards, BIGpanzer
Well, what I found just now:
1. Soviet SP gun NATI-CAKB was built in 1943 as single prototype. Had the serious technical problems with twin-engines and transmission, so it was even not tested! Based on light tanks T-70 and T-80 transmission and suspension; weight 10,5 t; crew 4 men; armor 15-35 mm; armament 76,2mm S-54 gun with 63 shells (not 57mm as you posted! I found the same photo); engine 100 hp (2 x GAZ-MM 50 hp); speed 35 km/h.
2. Soviet SU-80 had the another name SU-74D (SU-76D). It was based on experimental light SP gun SU-74B, but had US diesel. Built in 1943 as single prototype, because series production of SU-76M already started, also the foreign diesel made the series production very difficult.
Specifications: T-70 light tank chassis; weight 11,6 t; crew 4 men; armor 6-35 mm; armament 76,2mm F-34 gun with 71 shells; engine GMC 4-71 110 hp; speed 36 km/h; range 250 km.
3. Soviet ISU-152 mod. 1945 (object 704) was made as single prototype in 1945. It was based on IS-2 and IS-3 heavy tanks chassis and transmission. Specifications: weight 47,3 t; crew 5 men; armament 152,4mm cannon-howitzer ML-20SM mod. 1944 with 20 shells + 2 x 12,7mm MGs; armor 20-120 mm; engine 520 hp; speed 37 km/h; range 220 km. The main disadvantage - not comfortable conditions for the crew because of small cabin, driver's sitting located near the gun.
Regards, BIGpanzer
As for the French SP guns. That is very interesting for me. Of course, I know about Chasseurs de chars Laffly 15TCC 47mm SP gun (70 were produced), but as for experimental French SP guns - I have not a lot of information.
Well, what I know is:
1. Auto-mitrailleuse de reconnaissance AMR 35ZT3 with 25mm gun in a superstructure on the hull was used as the tank destroyer. Only 10 were produced. Also AMR 35ZT2 existed, with 25mm gun in the turret instead of Hotchkiss 13,2mm MG (also 10 were produced). In January 1940 7th and 6th tank reconnaissance groups (GRDI) from the 1st and 2nd Division d'Infanterie Mecanique, correspondingly, had four AMR 35 ZT each. Specifications: weight 6,8-7,0 t; crew 2 men; armor 6-13 mm; engine Renault 80 hp; speed 55 km/h; range 170-180 km.
2. As for the auto-mitrailleuse de reconnaissance AMR 33VM with 37mm gun. AFAIK only one prototype was built as Engin P 37mm tank destroyer. Specifications: weight 5,2 t; crew 2 men; armor 5-13 mm; engine Reinstella 82 hp; speed 55 km/h; range 180-200 km.
3. ACL (Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire) was built in 1931 as single prototype with 135mm naval gun. It was designed to supplement the super heavy FCM 2C tank. It had a heavy, slow and troublesome design, also ACL was not very reliable. Nevertheless, some sources report that several ACLs were produced in 1938 and used in 1940 against the German invasion.
Photo: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/fran ... L135-1.jpg
4. ARL V39 SP gun. A very interesting construction of 75mm SP gun, based on Char de bataille B1bis heavy tank.
Each DCR (Division Cuirasse) artillery should receive two groups of 6 those self-propelled guns. Although by 10 May 1940, 108 vehicles had been ordered by the Army to form 12 groups. But unfortunately, only two (one?) prototypes had been completed by ARL in soft steel. The prototype(s) would be evacuated to Marocco and hidden into a tunnel later. What happened with it later, I don't know. Specifications: weight 25 t; crew 5 men; armor 20-50 mm; speed 42 km/h.
The gun (converted fortress gun) could be retracted inside the hull to decrease the vehicle length.
Photo: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/fran ... tended.jpg
Regards, BIGpanzer
Well, what I know is:
1. Auto-mitrailleuse de reconnaissance AMR 35ZT3 with 25mm gun in a superstructure on the hull was used as the tank destroyer. Only 10 were produced. Also AMR 35ZT2 existed, with 25mm gun in the turret instead of Hotchkiss 13,2mm MG (also 10 were produced). In January 1940 7th and 6th tank reconnaissance groups (GRDI) from the 1st and 2nd Division d'Infanterie Mecanique, correspondingly, had four AMR 35 ZT each. Specifications: weight 6,8-7,0 t; crew 2 men; armor 6-13 mm; engine Renault 80 hp; speed 55 km/h; range 170-180 km.
2. As for the auto-mitrailleuse de reconnaissance AMR 33VM with 37mm gun. AFAIK only one prototype was built as Engin P 37mm tank destroyer. Specifications: weight 5,2 t; crew 2 men; armor 5-13 mm; engine Reinstella 82 hp; speed 55 km/h; range 180-200 km.
3. ACL (Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire) was built in 1931 as single prototype with 135mm naval gun. It was designed to supplement the super heavy FCM 2C tank. It had a heavy, slow and troublesome design, also ACL was not very reliable. Nevertheless, some sources report that several ACLs were produced in 1938 and used in 1940 against the German invasion.
Photo: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/fran ... L135-1.jpg
4. ARL V39 SP gun. A very interesting construction of 75mm SP gun, based on Char de bataille B1bis heavy tank.
Each DCR (Division Cuirasse) artillery should receive two groups of 6 those self-propelled guns. Although by 10 May 1940, 108 vehicles had been ordered by the Army to form 12 groups. But unfortunately, only two (one?) prototypes had been completed by ARL in soft steel. The prototype(s) would be evacuated to Marocco and hidden into a tunnel later. What happened with it later, I don't know. Specifications: weight 25 t; crew 5 men; armor 20-50 mm; speed 42 km/h.
The gun (converted fortress gun) could be retracted inside the hull to decrease the vehicle length.
Photo: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/fran ... tended.jpg
Regards, BIGpanzer
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 25 Apr 2005, 22:17, edited 2 times in total.
Tom!
You've posted a very interesting photos of US AA Sp guns.
AFAIK the T77E1, based on M24 Chafee light tank, was an experimental vehicle, armed with 6 x .50 MGs (! ) and built in 1945. Specifications: weight 17,3 t; crew 5 men; armor 13-38 mm; engine 220 hp (2 x Cadillac 44T24); speed 55 km/h.
T85 was built in 1945 (M3 medium tank chassis with 4 x 20mm Oerlikon Mk.IV; weight 15,4 t). Two were produced.
T3 HMC with 75mm howitzer was built in 1940. Based on M1 combat car (light tank). AFAIK the similar gun was mounted on tractor in 1930 by "Cunningham" company.
About T24 I know almost nothing, only that it was base on M3 medium tank and had 76,2mm AT gun. It was built, probably, in 1941.
You've posted a very interesting photos of US AA Sp guns.
AFAIK the T77E1, based on M24 Chafee light tank, was an experimental vehicle, armed with 6 x .50 MGs (!
) and built in 1945. Specifications: weight 17,3 t; crew 5 men; armor 13-38 mm; engine 220 hp (2 x Cadillac 44T24); speed 55 km/h.T85 was built in 1945 (M3 medium tank chassis with 4 x 20mm Oerlikon Mk.IV; weight 15,4 t). Two were produced.
T3 HMC with 75mm howitzer was built in 1940. Based on M1 combat car (light tank). AFAIK the similar gun was mounted on tractor in 1930 by "Cunningham" company.
About T24 I know almost nothing, only that it was base on M3 medium tank and had 76,2mm AT gun. It was built, probably, in 1941.
Hi.
Some more from chars-francais:
Renault FT 17 with 75 mm gun:
Lorraine 37 L with 47 mm at-gun:
Yours
tom!
Some more from chars-francais:
Renault FT 17 with 75 mm gun:
Lorraine 37 L with 47 mm at-gun:
Yours
tom!
Hello, Tom!
A very interesting photos of 75mm SP guns, based on the Char leger d'accompagnement FT-17 chassis!
Some of them I never saw before!
AFAIK there were some experimental models of FT-17 with 75mm gun, located in the non-rotated turret or in the hull.
But only Renault BS with 75mm Schneider howitzer was produced (39 copies).
As for the tracteur de ravitaillement pour chars Lorraine 37L I know that Germans reequipped thouse trophy ammunition carriers to SP guns: 179 - as Marder I with 75mm PaK 40, 12 - as 105mm and 94 - as 150mm SP howitzers. They were used in Africa, East Front and Normandy.
A very interesting photos of 75mm SP guns, based on the Char leger d'accompagnement FT-17 chassis!
Some of them I never saw before!
AFAIK there were some experimental models of FT-17 with 75mm gun, located in the non-rotated turret or in the hull.
But only Renault BS with 75mm Schneider howitzer was produced (39 copies).
As for the tracteur de ravitaillement pour chars Lorraine 37L I know that Germans reequipped thouse trophy ammunition carriers to SP guns: 179 - as Marder I with 75mm PaK 40, 12 - as 105mm and 94 - as 150mm SP howitzers. They were used in Africa, East Front and Normandy.
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johnestauffer
- Member
- Posts: 71
- Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 01:46
- Location: San Diego, CA
This is an interesting design - I don't know whether it belongs in the Allied or Axis category.
The Russians took some of the PzIII chassis and converted them into an assault gun.
http://www.battlefield.ru/su76i.html
The Russians took some of the PzIII chassis and converted them into an assault gun.
http://www.battlefield.ru/su76i.html