How did the germans view the greeks???

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Mr Holmes
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#136

Post by Mr Holmes » 28 Dec 2008, 14:51

BasilII wrote: That's an absolutely correct comment.

Some people on this thread seem to think like children, in black-and-white simple mindness, where whole states act
consistently based on principles, ideology and emotion..as if low instincts and war expediency of a largely immoral, chaotic and inefficient organisation had nothing to do with it. The Nazi mechanism did not have any central "grand scheme" that run on ideas...their opinions and actions could be repeatedly shown to have been incongruous and inexplicable. They could admire a people and let it rot, hate them and let them live..there is no "how they saw the Greeks easy answer"

Methinks.....as a lay person....
and,
BasilII wrote:Hey you are missing an essential fact about the racial determination tests and theories of the German Nazis,
the fact that it was all bull***t... you ask as if there is any scientific basis on their racist mumbo-jumbo.
Of course not all Hindo-Europeans look the same...it was all arbitrary...
I can only half-agree with your sentiments here, Basil. What you say of this thread, is no different to other threads here such as "how did Hitler view the Blacks?", "how did Hitler view the Native Americans?" and "how did Hitler view the Asians" and a couple of others of such ilk. Also, as my previous post shows, the Greeks were placed in the Nazi 'racial hierarchy' (via that wikipedia link) which shows (if accurate or even honest) that such a question can be legitimate. Since this is a historical research forum, any and all questions can and should be asked.

However, what I don't like are the 'fanboy' (to borrow the internet lingo) tendencies that can be brought out in such threads, as though one needs to feel loved or something.

Although, as others have already stated, the hundreds of thousands of dead speaks for itself.

With regards to your last quote, it can be said that some do not view it at all as BS.

Oh, and going back to the original post, I cannot remember where I read it (maybe in Jochen von Lang's book on Martin Bormann???) that Canaris's lineage cannot be traced by to Greece, but was found to have been from memory, South Tyrolian or something to that effect, but Italian nonetheless.

Also, with regards to Hess, I have only seen that claim from that website, Alexandria was a very busy and international (and 'multicultural' to use a word in heavy use today) and cosmopolitan city, although many Greeks lived there, they by no means had the monopoly on the city.

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Simon K
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A warm fuzzy feeling

#137

Post by Simon K » 28 Dec 2008, 20:28

Sigh..there are individuals on the forum that seem to need to be convinced, that there was a special place in Adolfs heart for THEM too. How reassuring. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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phylo_roadking
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#138

Post by phylo_roadking » 28 Dec 2008, 22:43

Hey you are missing an essential fact about the racial determination tests and theories of the German Nazis,
the fact that it was all bull***t... you ask as if there is any scientific basis on their racist mumbo-jumbo
The problem wasn't whether or not it was real, or scientific truth...the problem was that THEY believed it 8O We're trying to think objectively about something they thought about subjectively.

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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#139

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Dec 2008, 17:56

Hi Phylo,

There is a widespread tendency to mistake transient cultural qualities for inherent racial qualities.

The battles of Rossbach in 1757 and Jena-Auerstadt in 1806 show that military qualities are essentially cultural, not ethnic. In the first the French were routed at little cost by the Prussians and yet at the second, only a couple of generations later, it was the Prussians who were routed by the French at little cost.

The Nazis were deluded if they thought any race was significantly superior to any other. The gulf beween races is essentially cultural and varies over periods of time - often quite short ones, as the Rossbach-Auerstadt example shows. This is true in every field of human endeavour.

Germany was educationally and technologically advanced and had a strong and deepseated military culture, which underpinned its performances in both world wars. However, the Nazis mistakenly thought Germany's advantages were racially inherent. Hence their dismissiveness of the Greeks, amongst most others.

Cheers.

Sid.

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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#140

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Dec 2008, 19:56

There is a widespread tendency to mistake transient cultural qualities for inherent racial qualities.
Sid - you've just illustrated my point perfectly...
The problem wasn't whether or not it was real, or scientific truth...the problem was that THEY believed it
We can KNOW from 66+years of growing scientific knowledge that they were entirely wrong - but they could BELIEVE they were entirely right 8O And act upon that basis.
However, the Nazis mistakenly thought Germany's advantages were racially inherent
Again - it doesn't matter to history that they were mistaken - the problem was the believed they were superior and acted upon that superiority.

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Adam Carr
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#141

Post by Adam Carr » 30 Dec 2008, 11:31

National stereotypes can change very quickly. If you go back 200 years you will find that the national stereotype of the Germans among other Europeans was that they were slow-minded, jovial, beer-swilling rustics who made poor soldiers unless they were flogged into battle by their Junker overlords - and the record of German armies in the Napoleonic wars gave plenty of support to that view. The "modern" view of Germans as disciplined, efficient, humourless, hard-working and militaristic dates only from the late 19th century.

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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#142

Post by DrG » 31 Dec 2008, 16:05

I fully agree with the last comments in this thread. I can add a quotation from the second edition (1777-1783) of the "Encyclopaedia Britannica" that is perfectly in agreement with your messages (I have to re-translate it into English from an Italian translation, sorry for the obvious slight differences that may be present if compared to the original text):
It is thought, generally, that the Germans need to be animated given that their body promises more vigour and activity than the ones that they exercitate on the battlefield. But when they are commanded by good generals, expecially Italians, like Montecuccoli or Prince Eugene, they have done great things against both the Turks and the French.
Guido

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Vikki
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#143

Post by Vikki » 01 Jan 2009, 07:53

Let's keep to the topic of the thread, gentlemen.

~Vikki

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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#144

Post by Cephalonian » 08 Jan 2009, 03:07

My family comes from the island of Cephalonia, and we come from a long line of blond, blue eyes, very pale skin people. Growing up, my father taught me that the "true" Hellenes, are blond, blue eyes, red hair, green eyes. We also come from a family that is very right wing politically. During the war, my father was 10yrs old, and he told me that our family was taken care of by the Germans that occupied the island. Other families, because they were communist/rebels, were taken away or worse.
I have studied much on the subject of German/Hellenic culture. As someone above stated, Hitler did in deed admire the Hellenes. He modeled the army after the Spartans, used the ancient Hellenic symbol of the Swastika, the Roman Salute, and the Goose Step. He was also a fellow fascist like Metaxas( also from Cephalonia). I for one, consider myself an aryan, always and forever!

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Simon K
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#145

Post by Simon K » 08 Jan 2009, 03:16

Forum members dont go for myths like "arayans" here. This isnt a NAZI fanboy site thank God.

the NAZIs dispoiled an ancient Hindu symbol for their scuzzy politics, ruining it.

Where is your evidence for your remarkable claims?

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Mr Holmes
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#146

Post by Mr Holmes » 08 Jan 2009, 04:10

Oh dear.

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Vikki
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#147

Post by Vikki » 08 Jan 2009, 04:31

Cephalonian wrote:I have studied much on the subject of German/Hellenic culture. As someone above stated, Hitler did in deed admire the Hellenes. He modeled the army after the Spartans, used the ancient Hellenic symbol of the Swastika, the Roman Salute, and the Goose Step. He was also a fellow fascist like Metaxas( also from Cephalonia). I for one, consider myself an aryan, always and forever!
Cephalonian, please provide sources for your assertions. Since you say that you have "studied much on the subject," providing the sources should be easy.

As you are new here, please also take a look at the Forum rules at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... =6&start=0
and their expanded version, particularly E.Questions, Claims and Proof at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962


Simon K wrote:Forum members dont go for myths like "arayans" here. This isnt a NAZI fanboy site thank God.

the NAZIs dispoiled an ancient Hindu symbol for their scuzzy politics, ruining it.

Where is your evidence for your remarkable claims?
Simon K, watch your tone--see section A. Civility of the expanded rules.

~Vikki

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Simon K
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#148

Post by Simon K » 08 Jan 2009, 04:36

Ok Vikki

Simon

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mike peters
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#149

Post by mike peters » 08 Jan 2009, 04:42

"blond, blue eyes, red hair, green eyes" Greeks ? ---allrightythen
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Re: How did the germans view the greeks???

#150

Post by JGSS » 08 Jan 2009, 05:20

Well after reading 10 pages on this topic, i have to say its very interesting and i would like to thank everyone for their contributions.

Im new here and this is my first post on this site but here goes.

I don't know much on the subject, but im an Australian with Greek parents. My father is from Crete which was occupied by the Germans. He told me that the Germans used to look after his family, providing food and safety in exhange for wine etc. My mother is from the island of Lefkada, which was occupied by the Italians. My mother only has bad memories from them. Ofcourse brutality by occupiers will happen, that's the history of the human race. To anyone with Cretan heritage, i recommend the movie "The 11th day". Its about the Cretan resistance and the German occupation.

So in the end as others have mentioned, it depended on who controlled you at the time be it German or Italian. Every nationality has good and bad. It just depends on who you got.

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