► Photothread: French Equipment in German Service

[Alanmccoubrey]

Rui, I have now seen the picture to which you refer and I think that the caption is wrong. There was a parade held in June 1943 with 52 of the Lorraines belonging to Schnelle Brigade West and they are the same colour , have the same markings and the crews are in the black Panzerjacke. It would of course be fun for me as a wargamer if I had an excuse to use the Lorraine in Russia but unless someone can come up with more I don't think this picture is it. Alan

[Rui]

I also saw in Wydawnictwo Militaria 176 - Kursk 1943, a photo from a 15cm sFH13/1 Sf auf Gsch Lorraine Schlepper(f) Sd Kfz 135/1 in the Orel area in June 1943 (but without information about the unit, that it belonged).

This is the image from Wydawnictwo Militaria 176 - Kursk 1943, page 5

Besides the converted Somua halftracks used by the SS-Vielfachwerfer-Batterie 521:
Somua MCL/MCG - 8cm Vielfachwerfer auf SPW Somua S303/S307 (f), mounting Russian BM-8 launchers, that fires a German copy of Russian 82 mm M-8 Rockets.

According to Spielberger only 6 of these were built and all served with Schnelle Brigade West and then 21st Panzer Division in Normandy. Altough they do not appear anywhere in the Gliederungen for June, July and August 1944, photos just prior to D-Day show one with tactical markings showing that it belonged to the Stab of a StuG Abteilung, thus they must have been in StuG-Abteilung 200.

My understanding is that the rocket launcher apparatus that was affixed to a Somua MCL chassis by Becker in France was originally tested by the Waffen-SS in March 1942, but on an armored Opel Maultier chassis (8cm Raketen Vielfachwerfer auf Sf (Maultier)).

If you have documentation otherwise I would like to see it as I am trying to track down all Somua and Unic halftrack allocations in the German army.

thanks,
Sam

So far i only had seen the Vielfachwerfers on armored bodys, according to Chamberlain in Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, the production of Opel Maultier with armored body began in March of 1943, initially the 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 auf Sf (Sd.Kfz. 4/1), the Somua halftracks with the 8cm rockets, were also with armored body.


In Landwehr, Siegrunen #36, stats the SS-Vielfachwerfer Batterie 521 and 522 were probably the only two units of the Waffen-SS that used the 8cm multi-barrelled rocket.
Also in Landwehr, says that SS-Vielfachwerfer Batterie 521 were formed between March-May 1943, equipped with four 8cm Vielfachwerfer rocket launchers. And sent to the Eastern Front in May 1943.

The same appears on Lexicon der Wehrmacht:
SS-Vielfachwerfer-Batterie 521 - http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... BSS521.htm

Unfortunately, i don't have much info on captured equipament used by the Germans.
(Besides the info in this forum. )

Best Regards,

Rui

[Rui]

According to Panzer Tracts, Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten, 30 15cm sFH 13 (Sfl.) auf Lorraine-Schlepper were sent to Africa. All vehicles were lost before the end of 1942.
Other 64 Lorraines with sFH 13 were converted at Paris in July-August 1942, 60 were delivered to the Gepanzerte Artillerie Regiment 1 (Sfl.) and Gepanzerte Artillerie Regiment 2 (Sfl.).
Several infantry divisions in the Western Front had the Gep. Art. Rgt. 1 (Sfl.) vehicles, after it disbanded.
Gep. Art. Rgt. 2 (Sfl.) became Art. Rgt. 931 in 1943, afterwards the Pz. Art. Rgt. 155/21. Pz. Div.
In June 1944, were 24 Lorraines with 15cm sFH13 and 24 with 10.5cm in 21. Pz. Div.

In the second conversion of Lorraines with sFH 13, four is missing (first delivery)...
There are also missing six that belong initially to Gep. Art. Rgt. 2 (Sfl.), in June 44, 21. Pz. Div. had 24. What happened to these?


Best regards,

Rui

[Rui]

15cm sFH13/1 Sf auf Lorraine-Schlepper(f)

Three Batteries, each with 6 vehicles, late 1942. The first one, the vehicle 1 of the 2.Batterie

In the first photo it's a 6. Batterie vehicle, the third.

Best Regards,

Rui

[Rui]

A little off-topic...
Being Becker responsible for some conversions of captured French equipment, he also converted 6 British Mark VI light tanks, by mounting in them, 10.5cm leFH 16 howitzers. They were used by Art. Rgt. 227 at the Eastern Front in the end of 1941.

Best regards,

Rui

[Alanmccoubrey]

Rui, I don't know where you got the picture that you posted of the 150mm Lorraines but it is severly cropped, the full picture appears in the Spielberger book and is the one to which I referred, there are four rows each of 12 vehicles with a fifth row of only 4 to give the total of 52 in the picture. The parade is taking place in Versailles and is surrounded on three sides by the buildings of that place. Alan

[Rui]

In 1943, Somua MCG were converted to mSPW S307(f), that was equivalent of the Sdkfz 251/1.
In 1943/44, Unic-Kégresse P107 were converted to leSPW U304(f), that was equivalent of the SdKfz 251/1.

Does anyone knows if there was a 28/32cm Wurfrahmen 40 based on a captured French halftrack, equivalent to the Sdkfz 251/1?


Best regards,

Rui

[Rui]

Rui, I don't know where you got the picture that you posted of the 150mm Lorraines but it is severly cropped, the full picture appears in the Spielberger book and is the one to which I referred, there are four rows each of 12 vehicles with a fifth row of only 4 to give the total of 52 in the picture. The parade is taking place in Versailles and is surrounded on three sides by the buildings of that place. Alan

This picture appears on Jentz's Panzer Tracts No.10: Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten, page 10-47.


Best regards,

Rui

[ChadG]

Sam Wren,

Excellent article about the Unic P107s in 21.Panzer!

I have some questions for you:

1. You show 125 Regiment at full strength for their SPWs, but 192 Regiment is missing 7 vehicles. Would you assume these missing seven were stripped from the HQ platoons to fill the panzergrenadier's needs? It appears both regiments were full strength in regards to numbers of fighting men.

2. Do you know if the MGs of the heavy SPW platoons were fixed to the vehicles, or did they deploy into MG infantry teams? Same question for the mortar SPWs.


Thanks again for the wonderful article.
ChadG

[Alanmccoubrey]

Chad, In the orbat of 21 PD in Perigault's history of the division there are no 8cm mortars listed with any of the companies in either regiment, while Kortenhaus says that there were 2 in each heavy company so you just have to make up your mind who to accept. Alan

[Alanmccoubrey]

A question has just come to mind.

Does anyone have the production dates for the 15cm sFH13/1 auf Lorraine ? Spielberger has them being built in two batches but doesn't give the dates. Alan

[Sam Wren]

Does anyone have the production dates for the 15cm sFH13/1 auf Lorraine ? Spielberger has them being built in two batches but doesn't give the dates. Alan

According to Jentz in Panzer Tracts No 10, the first batch of 30 were completed by Alkett in June, 1942. Supposedly, all 30 of this batch were sent to Afrika: 12 to 21st Pz., 12 to 15. Pz and 6 to 90.Light. 7 sank in transit and 23 arrived in Libya.

In the same book Jentz states that 64 were constructed by Wa A Paris [Baustab Becker-Sam] in July and August 1942. These were issued to Gep. Art.-Regt. 1 (Sfl) and 2 (Sfl) at 30 apiece. No mention of the other 4. Gep. Art.-Regt 1 (Sfl) was disbanded and its guns distributed to infantry divisions stationed in the West (3 guns per division) and Gep. Art. Regt 2 (Sfl) was reorganized a few times, eventually becoming Pz.-Art.-Regt 155 of 21. Pz. Div. By D-Day, 21st Panzer had 24 Lg.s.F.H.13(Sfl) auf Lorraine-Schlepper officially on hand (12 in the Artillerie Regiment and 6 per sIG Kompanie of each Pz.Gren.Rgt). No mention of the other 6 that originally belonged to Gep.Art.-Regt 2 (Sfl), but I have a totally undocumented hunch that 21st Panzer had vehicles and weapons on hand that were kept "off the books".

[Sam Wren]

1. You show 125 Regiment at full strength for their SPWs, but 192 Regiment is missing 7 vehicles. Would you assume these missing seven were stripped from the HQ platoons to fill the panzergrenadier's needs? It appears both regiments were full strength in regards to numbers of fighting men.

2. Do you know if the MGs of the heavy SPW platoons were fixed to the vehicles, or did they deploy into MG infantry teams? Same question for the mortar SPWs.


ChadG

I have no idea. The existing documentation on 21st Panzer, as well as with most late war German units, is fragmentary and quite incomplete. As Alan stated, the primary sources (the Gliederungen and Meldungen) do not show any mortars in the Panzergrenadier companies, apart from the Reihenwerfers auf Somua, which is a totally different thing. The majority of the Appendices in Kortenhaus' history of the 21st Panzer Division are reproductions of official documents such as the Gliederung for 1.6.44, the Gliederung for Panzerregiment 22 that was issued with the orders for the conversion of Pz Rgt 100 to Pz Rgt 22 (and can be found in GenStdH/Org.Abt documents at the National archive), the Meldung dated 6.6.44, etc.

The appendix I referred to is titled "Ausstattung der 21. Panzerdivision mit gepanzerten Fahrzeugen und Hauptwaffen am 5. Juni 1944" or "Establishment of armored vehicles and primary weapons of the 21. Pz. Div on 5 June 1944". I don't know if this is based on some sort of original document or not. It sounds to me like it is, but that is an assumption and assumptions lead you wide open to looking like a total chump. Nonetheless, the reason it looks that way to me is that is has a specific date close to the beginning of the month, like many of the various German strenghth reports did. Kortenhaus was an enlisted man, serving as part of a tank crew and was wounded relatively early in the campaign, so he was in no position to know this information unlike other authors, such as Hubert Meyer of 12SS who was Chief of Staff of the Division throughout its existence (at least from D-Day on). If it is based on an original document, I have not seen anything like it, which does not mean much as I have only recently started to seriously try to obtain primary documents.

Anyway, I believe that the on-board weapons that could be dismounted (l.MGs, s.MGs and mortars) were dismounted and used when appropriate, but I am not very knowledgeable in the contemporary Pzgrenadier tactics and practices.

As to where the deficiencies of PzGrenRgt 192 were found, I can only guess. The Gliederung does show 9 Unic with 3.7cm so they did have a full complement of Platoon leaders' mounts.

The bright side to all of this is the mountains of documents in the NARA and, more so, in the Bundesarchiv, that have not been fully studied. It is very possible that the answers to many questions can still be found and did not all end up burned or used as toilet paper on the Normandy battlefields.

[Sam Wren]

Does anyone knows if there was a 28/32cm Wurfrahmen 40 based on a captured French halftrack, equivalent to the Sdkfz 251/1? Rui

There is documentation of at least one Somua MCG Stuka-zu-Fuss of 1. or 2./Panzerpionierbataillon 220 of 21. Panzer Division: a photo taken somewhere in the Falaise Gap, probably.

[Sam Wren]

This is the image from Wydawnictwo Militaria 176 - Kursk 1943, page 5

While a good source of photos, the captions of the Wydawnictwo books are consistently and thoroughly bad. They miscaption even very well-known photos. This may not be true of every book they publish, but it is true of the 8 or so that I have and the 15 or so more that I have looked at but do not own. 0 for 23 is not a good record.

This photo is actually one of those that was produced by Baustab Becker in France. According to the documentation - which is admittedly sketchy and incomplete (there are about 40 of these vehicles that ostensibly did not leave France that need to be accounted for). The "3" over "6 Gp" divided by a bar is a marking system employed by Baustab Becker for the vehicles that were rehabilitated and/or converted by them and which continued to be used by Schnelle Brigade West and its immediate source units for some time, but can no longer be seen on any 21st Panzer vehicles. I have seen no other units use markings like this in any theater. That the markings were actually applied in the shops of Baustab Becker is supported by photos of an assembly line of Unic Halftracks which have these markings already applied.