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Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces.
Long-time forum member Ron Klages (1939 - 2007) generously shared his knowledge and the results of his impressive research with the forum, and this section has therefore been renamed in his honour.
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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby Rui on 02 Mar 2010 06:00

Rnox wrote:
Rui wrote:Does anyone knows to which unit belonged the first three photos of the Marder I (Lorraine chassis)?
The tactical marking shows that was a vehicle from the 1.Panzerjäger Kompanie (mot.).
(In the Bundesarchiv photo description states that, it was on 1942, in Southern France).
Rui

15.Infanterie-Division. The division remained in France between april 1942 and february 1943 in the region of Bordeaux on coastal defense operations between Loire and Girondemundung.
source:http://www.feldgrau.com/InfDiv.php?ID=15


Did you know if the 15.Infanterie-Division, when returned to the Eastern Front, it took the Marder I or it stayed on France?


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Rui Esteves
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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby Rui on 02 Mar 2010 06:06

I have the impression, that I saw in this forum (or in another forum, but I can't find it now :oops:), that the 11.Panzer-Division had 4 SP howitzers on Lorraine chassis. Can anyone clarify this info? Or post the link?


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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby carius on 02 Mar 2010 07:49

Citroens
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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby carius on 02 Mar 2010 07:52

Renault
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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby carius on 04 Mar 2010 13:31

Citroen
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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby carius on 05 Mar 2010 12:41

Nice shot,Renault (?)
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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby carius on 06 Mar 2010 07:05

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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby Rui on 07 Mar 2010 02:29

Finally, I found the info about the SP howitzers on Lorraine chassis, that probably the 11. Panzer-Division had.
The info is on this thread about German vehicles in the west, by Mr. Ron Klages:

Section IV of German vehicles in the west
viewtopic.php?t=79411

Where it shows the following:
15cm IG auf Lorraine with 12 units on the Western Front

JUNE 1944:
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 125 [21.PD] with 6 units
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 192 [21.PD] with 6 units


15cm FH13 auf Lorraine with 12 units on the Western Front

JUNE 1944:
Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 [21.PD] with 12 units

DECEMBER 1944:
Pz.Art.Rgt. 119 [11.PD] with 4 units


10.5cm FH18 auf Lorraine with 24 units on the Western Front

JUNE 1944:
Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 [21.PD] with 24 units



11. Panzer-Division in June 1944:
The 11. Panzer-Division, initially was on western France, refitting in June 1944, from previous battles on Eastern Front. The 11. Panzer-Division was refitted using the 273. Reserve-Panzer-Division, this unit was on France from November 1943 until it was disbanded May 1944, after being used as source of personnel to the 11. Panzer-Division.

In December 1944, the Pz.Art.Rgt. 119/11.PD had four 15cm sFH 13 auf Lorraine Schlepper.
Maybe this division, received the usual batterie of 6 vehicles prior to D-day, (vehicles initially from the disbanded gep.Art.Rgt. 1 (Sfl.) in December 1942) transferred from the 273. Reserve-Panzer-Division?
Or these vehicles are the survivors of the 21. Panzer-Division?


The "15cm IG auf Lorraine" and "15cm FH13 auf Lorraine" were all 15 cm sFH 13 auf Lorraine Schlepper.


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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby Rui on 07 Mar 2010 03:01

The 716. Infantrie-Division, in June 1944, according the website Fire and Fury, had a minimum of four 15.5 cm howitzers on armoured Lorraine chassis. They were on the 10. (Sfl.)/III./Artillerie-Regiment 1716, commanded by Leutnant Rudolf Schaaf, between Juno and Sword Beaches. (The rest of the III. Abteilung was the Isigny area supporting the 352. Infanterie-Division). This website states that the info about the SP howitzers came from the memoirs of Leutnant Rudolf Schaaf, the CO of 10.Batterie.


link: http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/late7 ... ivdday.pdf



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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby Rui on 07 Mar 2010 03:38

So far, the 15 cm sFH13 auf Lorraine Schlepper (f), in June 1944, were probably, the following:

9. (sIG)/Pz.Gren.Rgt. 125/21. Pz.Div. = 6 vehicles
9. (sIG)/Pz.Gren.Rgt. 192/21. Pz.Div. = 6 vehicles
6. (Sfl.)/II./Pz.Art.Rgt. 155/21. Pz.Div. = 6 vehicles
9. (Sfl.)/III./Pz.Art.Rgt. 155/21. Pz.Div. = 6 vehicles
10. (Sfl.)/III./Art.Rgt. 1716/716. Inf.Div. = 4 vehicles (more ?)
?/?/Pz.Art.Rgt. 119/11.Pz.Div. = 6 or 4 vehicles ?

Total (so far) = 28 confirmed + 6 or 4 vehicles ?

From a total of 64 produced and delivered to units stationed on France.
Initially ten batteries of six vehicles each, [using the K.St.N.461a from 31.10.1942 for a Batterie lg.s.F.H. 13 (6 Gesch.) (Sfl)/gep.Art.Rgt.(Sfl)]:
1.-5./gep.Art.Rgt. 1 (Sfl);
1.-5./gep.Art.Rgt. 2 (Sfl).

The 6./gep.Art.Rgt. 1 (Sfl) and 6./gep.Art.Rgt. 2 (Sfl) were equipped with six 10.5cm leFH18 auf Lorraine Schlepper (f) each.

From the 30 15 cm sFH13 auf Lorraine Schlepper (f) of the gep.Art.Rgt. 2 (Sfl), only 24 became the part 21. Pz.Div. So six are missing, coincidentally, a batterie had six vehicles, the 716. Inf.Div. was near the 21. Pz.Div., and had received at least four specimens of SP howitzers. Could be the missing six vehicles from the gep.Art.Rgt. 2 (Sfl)?



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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby Rui on 07 Mar 2010 04:56

Sam Wren wrote:Rui,

...

One curious claim by Becker could pose as a possible "hole", though. As I mentioned before, the SP guns that he created while still a battery commander in AR 227 were created by using his own men of the battery as the labor force. I will quote the rest from Spielberger's book (my translation, for better or worse):
"After the loss of its vehicles in Russia, particularly by mine damage, the soldiers of Becker's battery were used as infantrymen. Severe restrictions forbade the transferal of operational soldiers out of the East to France where Becker, in the meantime, on behalf the Reich Ministry for Armament and War Production (Hauptdienstleiter Saur and Oberst Schaede) had formed the Building Staff Becker in Paris. There was nevertheless a way out. The commander of the 227th Infantry Division sent ten soldiers on home leave weekly and afterwards they had to report for duty with Building Staff Becker. By Christmas 1942, almost all of its soldiers were with Becker in Paris. The 227. Infantry Division received 20 armored vehicles in return. The manipulations around these transactions were adventurous."

The book does not mention what armored vehicles they received. Perhaps someone has a history of this Division that could elucidate what sorts of vehicles were sent. Maybe it includes the 4 15 cm auf Lorraine-Schleppers out of the 64 created by Baustab Becker that did not go to the the SP units in France (they received 30 each, leaving 4 unaccounted for)?

If you do not have it, Spielberger's book Beute-Kraftfahrzeuge und-Panzer der deutschen Wehrmacht is essential. It is in German, is dated and is not free of errors, but nothing better is available in this subject area.



Maybe some of the 20 armoured vehicles you mention that 227. Inf. Div. received could be:

According to Jentz's Panzer Tracts No. 10: Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten:
Two 10,5 cm leFH18 auf Lorraine Schlepper (f) were produced in early December 1942 and issued to a new StuG Zug/15./Art.Rgt. 227 of the 227. Inf.Div. on the Eastern Front.

The 15. Batterie, a.k.a. Sturmbatterie, was the same unit that received the six 10,5 cm leFH16 auf Geshützpanzer Mk VI (e) in October 1941, and used them as Sturmgeschütz, according to Jentz).

As early conversions made by Major Becker and issued to the 227. Infanterie-Division, 10.5 cm & 15 cm SP howitzers, Ammo carriers, Artillery Observation vehicles, the other vehicles could be also similar, but on different chassis:

These could be some of them?
- Grosser Funk und Beobachtungspanzer auf Lorraine Schlepper (f) - Radio/Artillery Observation vehicle (30 produced)
- 15 cm sFH13 auf Lorraine Schlepper (f) - SP howitzer (15 cm) (64 produced in the 2nd batch, 1st batch sent to Africa and all lost)


Major Becker converted some British Mark VI light tanks into: (and delivered to the Sturmpanzer Batterie/15./Art.Rgt. 227 in October 1941)
- 10,5 cm leFH16 auf Geshützpanzer Mk VI (e) - SP howitzer (10.5 cm) (12 produced)
- 15 cm sFH13 auf Geshützpanzer Mk VI (e) - SP howitzer (15 cm) (6 produced)
- Beobachtungspanzer auf Fahrgestell leichter Panzerkampfwagen Mk VI 736 (e) - Artillery Observation vehicle
- Munitionspanzer auf Fahrgestell leichter Panzerkampfwagen Mk VI 736 (e) - Ammunition carrier (12 produced)
Source: Spielberg's Beute-Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der deutschen Wehrmacht



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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby Rui on 07 Mar 2010 05:35

Here is some photos on the 15 cm sFH13 auf Lorraine Schlepper (f) in Normandy 1944:

http://www.1944d-day.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6192

1st photo = no tactical markings, infantry division (colored picture)
2nd photo = #315, 15cm sFH13/1 (Sf) Sd.Kfz.135/1, Pz.Art.Rgt.155, 21.Panzer-Division, Normandy, July 1944 (According to Zaloga's Panzers in the Gunsights)
3rd photo = #622 - 15cm sFH 13 auf Lr.S. from 6./Pz.Art.Rgt. 155, captured in Normandy, summer 1944.

The #315 raise some questions, if it was from Pz.Art.Rgt.155/21.Panzer-Division, Normandy, July 1944, so it was from 3. Batterie. Unofficial SP howitzers? Or misidentified unit?
(official units of 21. Pz.Div. = 6. & 9./Pz.Art.Rgt 155; 9./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 125; 9./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 192)


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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby carius on 08 Mar 2010 07:22

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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby Sam Wren on 08 Mar 2010 10:06

The #315 raise some questions, if it was from Pz.Art.Rgt.155/21.Panzer-Division, Normandy, July 1944, so it was from 3. Batterie. Unofficial SP howitzers? Or misidentified unit?
(official units of 21. Pz.Div. = 6. & 9./Pz.Art.Rgt 155; 9./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 125; 9./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 192)


Rui,

"315" is actually 615. Panzerwrecks #8 (Normandy) has three views of this particular vehicle including a rear view showing the SP artillery tactical marking with the number 6 to it's right indicating the 6th Battery.

Que Deus abençoe-lo,

Sam
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Re: Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

Postby carius on 08 Mar 2010 10:33

Citroen in the mud
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