Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

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VonKoreenium
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Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#1

Post by VonKoreenium » 21 Apr 2014, 17:18

I started working on a 3D model of Panzer IV Ausf.J and quite soon I realised that there is something wrong with the blueprint/drawing. So I looked for another one. And even that one had some obvious mismatches. So I started investigating.

Panzer IV Ausf.J dimensions I found on the internet: lenght 5.89m; height 2.68m; width 2.88m

Some of the blueprints fit into those dimensions quite well but still the sprocket/final drive position on the blueprint seemed in a slightly wrong place and wrong size. Take a look at picture below.

Picture ( left one is based on a blueprint I found and on the right is the the real deal:
Image

Ofcourse I could just adjust the position of the sprocket etc to make it fit. But I wanted to investigate and see where lies the reason that causes this problem with so many blueprints/drawings.

So after going through several books I found this:
Image

This original blueprint clearly shows that the distance between front of the track and rear of the track is 5780mm. And on all of the blueprints that I found from books this distance was far less. (~5620mm) That is massive difference and it also affects the lenght of the hull.
After some more searching I found one original Panzer IV blueprint and it was a perfect match with the above blueprint. This tells me that the lenght of the hull 5.89m (w/o gun) is wrong and it should be 6.09m. It is plausible that this problem also affects blueprints for other tanks based on panzer IV chassis. Couple of blueprints that were almost perfect match with the original one were both made by Hilary Louise Doyle.

In the end the primary problem I had was caused by the sprocket being too high on almost every single blueprint.

I hope this might help some people. :D
Last edited by VonKoreenium on 22 Apr 2014, 10:24, edited 1 time in total.

GregSingh
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Re: Panzer IV dimensions

#2

Post by GregSingh » 22 Apr 2014, 08:39

Welcome to the Forum!

I can't see pictures you uploaded, so it's hard to tell what's wrong.
According to original specs for PzKpfw IV, overall length of the hull for version J was 6090mm, so you are right.
Although earlier versions had 5920mm hull, and versions B and C had 5870mm.

So it all depends.


VonKoreenium
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Re: Panzer IV dimensions

#3

Post by VonKoreenium » 22 Apr 2014, 10:24

Are the pictures visible now?
Can you tell me where you found that panzer IV ausf J should be 6090mm long?

It is really sad that so many Ausf J and other pzIV model blueprints are based on wrong dimensions. If someone makes blueprints then I expect them to be somewhat correct. But it seems that only reliable source of blueprints come from Hilary Louise Doyle.

GregSingh
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#4

Post by GregSingh » 22 Apr 2014, 13:41

Sorry, 6090mm is not confirmed. Looks like another error.
According to W.Spielberger - Panzer IV & Its Variants, all late models had 5920mm.

VonKoreenium
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#5

Post by VonKoreenium » 23 Apr 2014, 12:02

Hmm... I do know that Spielberger has made mistakes before.
I will do some picture and blueprint comparison and see what comes out of it.

Denniss
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#6

Post by Denniss » 24 Apr 2014, 09:23

Get a copy a Panzertracts 4, if anyone has it right then Jentz/Doyle.

Ausf. F overall length is stated as 5.92m (no gun overhang), G with 6.63m and H with 7.015m (with gun overhang). I'm not aware of a change to the hull which may have caused a lengthening of the hull, maybe the change was because they measured extended track mudguards or the revised exhaust mufflers.

VonKoreenium
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#7

Post by VonKoreenium » 24 Apr 2014, 11:40

I want panzer tracts 4 but used one costs 360$. A bit too much :)

I made a comparison picture of a original german ausf G drawing with ausf G or H hull.
Image

It seems to be a perfect match.

And I also made hulls outline comparison.
Blue is from original ausf G drawing.
Red is from Trojcas ausf G drawing.
Image

it is quite obvious that the Trojcas drawing has shorter hull and sprocket is more towards the rear. Also some other drawings have exactly same problem as Trojcas.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#8

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 24 Apr 2014, 22:43

I did some measurements of the Pz Kpfw IV Ausf. J in Panzer Tracts 4:
  • From start of mudflap to end of mudflap: 168.4 mm (about 5894 mm)
  • From start of track to end of track: 160.0 mm (about 5600 mm)
  • From start of armor to end of mufflers: 157.0 mm (about 5495 mm)
  • From start of armor to end of armor: 148.5 mm (about 5197.5 mm)
Now, obviously, these measurements are imprecise. For one, the drawings are really about 1/34.985, not 1/35. The accuracy of my ruler, and my estimation of tenths of a millimeter is also an issue. The otherall length without the gun does seem very close to 5.89 m.

It is important to note that the picture you have inserted is not a blueprint. Rather, it is an illustration of the suggested Pz Kpfw IV with Panther-Schmalturm.

VonKoreenium
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#9

Post by VonKoreenium » 25 Apr 2014, 00:43

Hmm... what about the height?

Yes that one is a more of an illustration but the numbers on it should be correct? I have one Panzer IV ausf J drawing from Doyle and if I use lenght of 5890mm it will be only ~2535mm high.

According to the roadwheels the correct lenght should be 5890mm. So now I am confused and sad. :( I have to remodel the hull for the third time. Oh well.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#10

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 25 Apr 2014, 13:47

The line drawings made for such proposals were rarely very accurate. You will note that the drawing is also ambiguous in terms of what is actually measured (on the real Pz Kpfw IV, the mudguards extended beyond the tracks). The dimensions listed in manuals were also intended for shipping tolerances, rather than being an accurate measure of the vehicle, and should be used with care.

Whether it's 5890 or 5894 millimeter can't realiably be determined from a measurement of a drawing, as the difference on the drawing is only 0.11 mm, i.e., less than the width of the lines of the drawing. Whether the drawing is intended to be measured from the edge or the center of the line will therefore give a greater difference than what I've measures. Furthermore, the difference of four millimeter is as I recall within the armor thickness tolerances of the glacis plate.

I'll be happy to measure the height. From where to where would you like me to measure it?

VonKoreenium
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#11

Post by VonKoreenium » 25 Apr 2014, 17:00

I understand.
Armor tolerance was 0-5mm.

Well I would like to know the maximum height. From the bottom of the track to the top of the commander's cupola.

Also here is a illustration? that seems to be original. But maybe it is from some later time. I don't really know.
Image

The thing with this one is that it matches the mesurements from the Schamlturm illustration and it also fits perfectly with the real Panzer IV Ausf.G/H hull.
Image

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#12

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 25 Apr 2014, 19:12

The drawing you have inserted is, as far as I can tell, an explanatory illustration from a manual. These weren't overly accurate, as a factory blueprint would have been.

I measured from the ground to the top of the cupola, and got 76.4 millimeters, or 2674 scale millimeters. This is consistent with the stated 2680 mm. I checked the wheel base and track contact length measurements as well, which were also consistent with the drawing.

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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#13

Post by VonKoreenium » 30 Apr 2014, 12:21

Yeah.. I was wrong. But still some of the drawings are wrong.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#14

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 30 Apr 2014, 17:11

Quite true. A lot of them are, in fact. Finding the right ones is the real trick.

VonKoreenium
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Re: Panzer IV Ausf J dimensions

#15

Post by VonKoreenium » 01 May 2014, 13:09

If there only was a real Panzer IV somewhere near my home I would go and do some of my own measuring.

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