German tanks vs. Russian tanks

[Xylitol]

Risti = Cross

The site lists people who earned Mannerheim Cross.

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi Sergei,

Just testing your finnish language skills
About the list: there is the number of the award, rank, name and date of award given.

Best Regards, Juha

P.S. rank translation to german: http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/axis- ... -ranks.htm

[Scott Smith]

Diesel is actually more "demanding" winter fuel than gasoline, as it tends to lose it's fluidness in serious cold. There are winter, special winter and arctic grades that can resist negative effects of cold but as producing them is more expensive (complex?) the refineries produce by default only as "strong" quality as is estimated to be necessary. Thus, sudden drop to unlikely low temperatures often causes problems to diesel users even today as it takes some time before the production is shifted to proper grade. Some field chemistry (adding gas/alcohol, etc. in the tank) may have been tried as a makeshift solution in the wartime but such cocktails may well break the engine. I don't know how they actually solved that kind of problems.

It's not really that big of a deal. Diesel fuel of any grade is easier to produce than even low-octane motor-gasoline. The fuel needs to be warmed with a simple fuel-line heater that uses engine coolant or electricity. Starting the motor is not any big deal either. Any engine will be difficult to start in subzero temperatures. I've started farm equipment at 45 degrees below zero Fahrenheit merely by building a fire underneath the engine block. A gasoline or propane camp-stove works great. German diesel trucks had an engine heater that burned oil or alcohol and brought the engine up to operating temperature which made it easy to start. Often Soviet tanks idled for long periods of time to keep warm; they could spare the fuel, and usually did not use ambush tactics but mass-attacks anyway.

German tanks appear not to have gone to diesels for two reasons: 1) It would disrupt existing production lines for yet another engine type, and 2) the Soviet W-2 diesel put-out a maximum of 600 brake-horsepower, which wasn't enough power for a Panther or a Tiger. So, unless the Germans developed another design that was more powerful (which would entail a serious production delay) or developed a turbocharger that could be added, a diesel was out of the question. Most of the tanks in the latter part of the war were heavier.

American tanks in WWII did not go to diesels because U.S. Army studies showed that explosions were usually caused by exploding ammunition not exploding fuel, so they didn't want to have two fuel types in their long logistical chain.

[Ike_FI]

It's not really that big of a deal. Diesel fuel of any grade is easier to produce than even low-octane motor-gasoline. The fuel needs to be warmed with a simple fuel-line heater that uses engine coolant or electricity. Starting the motor is not any big deal either. Any engine will be difficult to start in subzero temperatures. I've started farm equipment at 45 degrees below zero Fahrenheit merely by building a fire underneath the engine block. A gasoline or propane camp-stove works great. German diesel trucks had an engine heater that burned oil or alcohol and brought the engine up to operating temperature which made it easy to start. Often Soviet tanks idled for long periods of time to keep warm; they could spare the fuel, and usually did not use ambush tactics but mass-attacks anyway.

Well I'm not an owner of a diesel vehicle, but the diesel problems were topical again here a few weeks ago when it became unexpectedly cold - compared to the typical December average - very suddenly. Most people who had regular diesel in their tanks had to choose public transport while I had just "normal" difficulties (starting takes longer, must have good battery and add anti-freeze while filling tank) starting my gasoline engine... so it's much up to the question whether the fuel delivery infrastructure is prepared or not.

I'd be interested to hear whether the Russians had engine block heaters in their tanks, if anyone knows the details. Idling engines was used as an emergency option to keep lubricants fluid, but as in the other hand logistical difficulties often occurred where cold caused trouble, any extra consumption that tied transport capacity was especially unwelcomed.

Here's an related article wiht some instructions to DIY people:
(Actually from a railway enthusiaist site, maybe better not try this on moden hi-tech cars... )

Problem 2, waxing of diesel fuel

In Norway diesel units, and motorcars, are run all year round and in temperatures reaching - 30 degree. centigrade and lower. To avoid the waxing problems the oil companies in Norway deliver their diesel fuel in (at least) two temperature grades.

"Summer grade" with a minimum operating temperature of approx. - 11 degree centigrade, and a "Winter grade" with a minimum operating temperature of approx. - 24 degree. centigrade. When this is not sufficient the operating temperature is lowered further by mixing paraffin in the diesel fuel. This can be done with any grade of diesel fuel, i.e. your "summer grade" can be transformed into a fully functional "winter grade" by adding paraffin.

Based on information from Shell here in Norway the operating temperature of the "summer grade" will be lowered approximately 2 degree. centigrade for each 10% of paraffin. The effect with "winter grade" is somewhat better; approximately 3 degree. centigrade for each 10% of paraffin. This way the operating temperature of the "summer grade" can be lowered to
approximately - 25 degree centigrade, and the "winter grade" can be lowered to approximately - 42 degree. centigrade. Refer to table 1 for details.

IMPORTANT: Whenever mixing more than 40% of paraffin in your diesel you must add TWO-STROKE engine oil to the fuel. This is because the lubricating properties of the diesel is destroyed when mixing it with large quantities of paraffin, thus you risk excessive wear or breakdown of your fuel injection pump if not adding some two-stroke oil, whereby the lubricating properties is upheld.

When mixing diesel and paraffin it is not sufficient just to pour the paraffin into your fuel tank. If you do this the paraffin and diesel will not mix well. The paraffin will then end up as a layer on top of the diesel fuel. Either you should stir it thoroughly after pouring the paraffin into the tank, or you should pour it down into the bottom of the tank by means of a hose. Personally I would recommend doing both, pour it into the bottom of your tank through a hose, then stir it.

Table 1: Diesel fuel operating temperatures
Diesel fuel
summer grade
winter grade
% of two stroke oil

opr.temp as sold
-11 dgr. C
-24 dgr. C
0 %

wiith 10 % paraffin
-13 dgr. C
-27 dgr. C
0 %

wiith 20 % paraffin
-15 dgr. C
-30 dgr. C
0 %

wiith 30 % paraffin
-17 dgr. C
-32 dgr. C
0 %

wiith 40 % paraffin
-19 dgr. C
-35 dgr. C
0 %

The following not to be used without the added two-stroke engine oil:

wiith 50 % paraffin
-21 dgr. C
-38 dgr. C
0,50 % t-s oil

wiith 60 % paraffin
-23 dgr. C
-40 dgr. C
0,75 % t-s oil

wiith 70 % paraffin
-25 dgr. C
-42 dgr. C
1,00 % t-s oil

If using diesel fuel with other clouding points then assume a lowering of the clouding point of 2 degrees centigrade for each 10% of paraffin.

Other measures

Use engine oil SAE 15W - 40 or 10W - 30 depending on climate. This makes for easier starting and reduced wear during the start-up and the warm-up period while you fully maintain lubrication at normal operating temperatures.

If not already installed then install coolant heaters on your engines. This will greatly improve the cold-starting abilities, and will also reduce wear. I think there are diesel fired systems available, but in Norway we use electrical heaters in the cooling systems of all our engines.

Always use ethylene glycol based antifreeze in your coolant. 30% will keep you safe down to approx. - 15 degree. centigrade, at the same time providing a sufficient corrosion protection. At the Krøderen line we use a 50/50 mix the year round, it keeps us safe down to approx. - 36 degree. centigrade during winter storage.

source: http://www.railcar.co.uk/bulletin/diesel.htm

[Juha Hujanen]

Sergei,here's a list of Knights Of The Mannerheim Cross in English:

http://www.mikkeli.fi/museot/englanti/pm_ritarit.html

[4LOM]

russian tank crews were generally of a poor quality and their accuracy tended to range from bad to awful. The only advantage they had was numbers.
Britsh/American tanks were probably the worst of all. The sherman was "affectionatly" known to german infantry as a Tommy Oven.

Rich 4LOM Hayes
1st post

[Juha Tompuri]

4LOM,

Wellcome here. I agree with you that there was perhaps something else than just exploding ammo behind such names as "Tommy Oven" and "Ronson".

Regards, Juha

[Alter Mann]

I don't have any startling revelations and I hope you all realize that my posts are just my opinions . . . but:

I'm currently reading 'T-34, Russian Armor' by Douglas Orgill. I would be happy to know if anyone has anything negative or positive to say about the book, because it has been a revelation to me.

It seems that the T-34, even the one with the 76.2cm gun, had TWO sights for the gunner. One periscopic and the other telescopic. Both had illuminated reticles. It seems that, for accuracy, the telescopic sight was preferred if the situation permitted. (Same thing with an M-60A1. I always used the telescopic sight to zero the gun.)

As to the question about what you could hit if you looked through the gun tube, I'll tell you what we did to zero and let you make the translation. After the gun was bore-sighted (Black threads taped across the 'witness' marks at the muzzle and looking through the firing pin hole in the breechblock with binoculars at a zeroing point. Adjusting the gun in traverse and elevation until the point where the two threads crossed was precisely on the point.) We offset the telescopic sights to exactly the same point without moving the gun or turret. Then we offset the sights another few mils down and another few mils to the right. (We zeroed at 1200 meters) This adjustment allowed for the ballistic characteristics of the round as well as the rifling in the gun tube, which caused a predictable drift to the left. The rounds traveled at more than 700 meters per second. We then fired three rounds at the same point after carefully re-aligning the gun/turret to put the sight crosshairs back on the same point. Then we put the sights back on the aiming point again, very carefully and without moving them, and finally 'slipped' the sight adjustment knobs so that the crosshairs were in the center of the shot pattern. After that, we got one check round. If it didn't hit within a few inches of the center of the target, we started over again.

The circular 'mil' is very convenient for tank crewmen. The arc subtended by an angle of one mil at 1000 meters is exactly 1 meter. At 2000 meters, it is 2 meters, etc. Pretty convenient.

If you look through the firing pin hole of the breech and through the muzzle, you have a limited area of view determined by the caliber of the weapon and the length of the gun. At short ranges (less than 1000 meters) and with a high velocity gun, you can hit things by sighting through the breech, but it takes an extraordinary person to do it. Especailly when the breech had been closed for the shot and the target is moving. I wouldn't ordinarily bet my life on a shot like that, but there is nothing extraordinary about me, and I've never been in a position where I would need to do it. The Finn that did it successfully has earned a great deal of respect from me.

As to Diesel fuel, the US military only had two grades that I know of that were used in tanks, but my knowledge comes from the 1970s. We had DF-2 for fairly normal weather and DF-A for really cold weather. A friend of mine from the 'Blanketheads' (1/9th infantry) stationed at Fort Wainright, Alaska during the 1970s told me how they used to determine if it was 'really' cold outside. They had a bucket of Diesel fuel and would stick a stick into it. If the hole stayed there after they pulled the stick out, they were pretty sure that it was more than 60 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. But you know I never asked them what was in the bucket. Was it DF-2 or DF-A?

[John W]

If you look through the firing pin hole of the breech and through the muzzle, you have a limited area of view determined by the caliber of the weapon and the length of the gun. At short ranges (less than 1000 meters) and with a high velocity gun, you can hit things by sighting through the breech, but it takes an extraordinary person to do it. Especailly when the breech had been closed for the shot and the target is moving. I wouldn't ordinarily bet my life on a shot like that, but there is nothing extraordinary about me, and I've never been in a position where I would need to do it. The Finn that did it successfully has earned a great deal of respect from me.

It's true. My cousin's a tanker and he knows a guy, a whiz at gunnery. He beat the shit outta a of a squad(?) of Pakistani tanks during the 1971 war and y cuz says that he used to fire over what he calls "open sights" during excercises (and get dressed down proper afterwerds byt eh CO). Not very successful my cuz assures me, but can be done.