Goodwood tank casualties........

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Goodwood tank casualties........

#1

Post by Michael Kenny » 09 Feb 2009, 03:27

The 'Official' Goodwood report(CAB 44/249) has a small note in Appendix B that boldly states:

Tanks. Total Casualties = 493
Total Strength 0745 hours 18 July 44 = 1369
i.e 36% of initial strength.
Total Tank Losses 18/19 July 44 = 156, 11.4%

The generaly accepted figure is 400+ and you rarely get any mention of the battle without being told of the 'massive (even catastrophic) losses and the 'destruction' of a third of the UK's tank Force. In the latest book by Perry Moore (Operation Goodwood, Corridor of Death) you can read how 23rd Hussars lost 20 Shermans at 18:00 and a further 20 M4's at 18:30. "in total 40 tanks of the the 23rd Hussars had been destroyed". Strangely he then goes on to sum up 11th AD losses and notes 23rd Hussars lost...................26 tanks! Thus though he knows the actual losses (because he quotes the right total of 26) he can not resist inflating them.
Anyway we have 11tt AD's tank states for the night of 18/7/44 and they are:

Key:
fit/fit in under 24hours/fit over 24hours or written off.

M4 75mm 91/9/80
M4 17pdr 15/-/21
Crom 41/1/15
Stuart 12/1/14

Thus the days losses were 11 fit in under 24hrs and 140 over 24 hrs or written off. A total of 151.

We also have a Regimental Breakdown for losses on the 18th

Fife & Forfar = 43
3 RTR = 41
23 Hussars = 26
North Yeo = 16
Total = 126

Note that this is 25 less than the above.

Tank states for night of 19/7/44

M4 75mm 65/16/89
M4 17pdr 16/1/23
Crom 24/4/31
Stuart 26/2/14

Total lossesof 23 + 157 = 180. Logic tells us most of the previous days losses are still in the totals. Therefore a 54 tank increase. If the 'under 24 hour repair' totals are fixed then that would add a max of 11 to this 54

Regimental loss breakdown for the 19th

Fife & Forfar = 8
3 RTR = 16
23 Hussars = 4
North Yeo = 37
Total = 65
A difference of 11!




I have no figures for 7th and Guards AD's for the 18th but have for the 19th. Thus we have to reconstruct them.
11th AD figures (all types added together) for 19th are:

18th = 159/11/130
19th = 131/23/157
note that the 24 hrs+ total has risen. We can assume that the previous days total of 130 are in there and 27 more added.
So I am going to use the 19th totals to get some idea of 7th and Guards totals.

Guards:
19th = 266/16/21 (loss = 37)

7th:
19th = 223/19/11 (loss = 30)

Using the assumption the majority previous days losses are still being counted (as we did with 11th AD) then it would suggest quite low numbers for 7th and Guards Armoured on 18th/19th July.

Back to flights of fancy

For 11th AD we can get a total of circa 200 and say around 100 for 7th and Guards. This is far short of the 493 loss figure and I am wondering where the remaining 200 can be found.
2nd Canadian AB show a loss of 15 over18/19th
27th AB lose 26
148 RAC lose 10
79th AD was present with 22nd Dragoons, 1st Lothian and 141 RAC but I doubt they could make up the difference.
Can anyone help with the figures? I hate talking to myself.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#2

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Dec 2011, 00:51

Update and replacement of the above.

Caualties (men & machines) for Guards, 7th & 11th Armoured Divisions 18-19-20 July 1944.

Data from MORU Report No. 23 1946 ( MILITARY OPERATIONAL RESEARCH UNIT)



Image


Note the two reports give differing tank loss numbers for 11th AD on the 18th ( 126 or 144)and 19th (65 or 48)


Alanmccoubrey
Member
Posts: 3370
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 14:44

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#3

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 30 Dec 2011, 11:23

Michael, Just to stop you talking to yourself.

Did any of the Armoured Divisions receive any replacement tanks at the end of each day ?
Alan

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: 22 Dec 2003, 19:03

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#4

Post by RichTO90 » 30 Dec 2011, 15:32

Alanmccoubrey wrote:Michael, Just to stop you talking to yourself.

Did any of the Armoured Divisions receive any replacement tanks at the end of each day ?
Hi Alan,

Yes, very likely, since the on hand of the relevant FDS decrease in most cases through that period. The 18 July report is missing, but I think the trend is still pretty clear. However, the numbers involved are relatively small. None of the FDS held Sherman 17-pdr and typically the number of Sherman 75mm on charge at any one time was less than 25. I can give you the actual figures if you are interested.

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#5

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Dec 2011, 16:08

The other tank Units engaged at Goodwood

Image

IMW
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: 17 Apr 2006, 18:35
Location: U.k

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#6

Post by IMW » 30 Dec 2011, 16:14

Guys,

Fantastic thread, but this might be off topic, is there any reports on Panther wrecks in the area of Op Goodwood sector between the 18.7.44 to 20.7.44. Or a claims report on German tank kills.

Cheers Mike

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#7

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Dec 2011, 21:20

Tank numbers at 'last light' each day.

Image

Alanmccoubrey
Member
Posts: 3370
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 14:44

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#8

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 30 Dec 2011, 21:44

Thanks for the "last light" numbers they are very interesting indeed.
Alan

Bob_Mackenzie
Member
Posts: 520
Joined: 22 Nov 2003, 12:02
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#9

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 31 Dec 2011, 01:40

Excellent Info - thanks

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#10

Post by Michael Kenny » 31 Dec 2011, 04:56

It should be borne in mind that these figures conflict with other Official Goodwood reports. Like everything else the more we find out the less we know!

RichTO90
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: 22 Dec 2003, 19:03

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#11

Post by RichTO90 » 31 Dec 2011, 05:48

Michael Kenny wrote:Tank numbers at 'last light' each day.
Ah, thanks Michael, I had forgotten that after 9 June the RAC reports were usually done as of "last light" or 2200 hours. So the relevant FDS report to key off of is the 17 July one, which is extant.

So, Guards AD FDS distributed at least 8 Sherman 75mm by last light of 19 July, going from 24 to 16. Of course the problem is the FDS was also where the repaired tanks from the workshops were sent, so it is also possible that in the 48 hour period 2200 17 July to 2200 19 July all 24 were distributed - and more received - leaving 16 on hand. The number actually distributed in between could have been 8...or 80...or 800. :? Bleh! Damned reporting methodologies should have been designed keeping in mind the requirements of historians 70 years after the fact. :lol:

Cheers!

And a Happy New Year to you!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.


Leerhöy
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 19 Jan 2010, 15:38
Location: Denmark

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#13

Post by Leerhöy » 01 Jan 2012, 02:03

Very interesting. Thanks a lot for sharing.

Kim
Interested in anything regarding 21.Pz.Div in Normandy, as well as Opel Olympia OL38 and DKW NZ 350-I in general.

User avatar
C.GILLONO
Member
Posts: 334
Joined: 14 Nov 2004, 13:56
Location: Paris-France

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#14

Post by C.GILLONO » 20 Jan 2012, 16:12

Many thanks for that!

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 14028
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 15:07
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Goodwood tank casualties........

#15

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 14 Aug 2015, 19:18

Michael Kenny wrote:Total Tank Losses 18/19 July 44 = 156, 11.4%
I'm looking through the MORU report, and the 156 number is simply the sum of 29th Armoured Brigade tanks undergoing maintenance (13+115+12+16), not the total write-offs. I was fooled at this too at first, as the summary is on the next page from the headline for paragraph 77, but paragraph 78 does not start until after the summary. Unless the numbers just happen to be the same (not entirely unlikely, but improbable), it also appears to be repeated in the British Cabinet history that is quote in Stephen Napier's book.

Post Reply

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”