A question about cars

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PiretBCN
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A question about cars

#1

Post by PiretBCN » 08 Sep 2012, 16:24

If I am in the wrong section by mistake then please move the message.

I am interested in the car brands of some famous people. I know that Hitler obviously had a Mercedes and General Burgdorf had an Opel (acc to wikipedia). Which cars did the following people drive and/or own:
1.Alfred Jodl
2.Wilhelm Keitel
3.Joseph Goebbels (surely not a BMW? :lol: )
4. Felix Steiner
5. Hermann Fegelein
6. Hans Krebs (Wehrmacht general and not SS-Brigadeführer)
7. Wilhelm Mohnke
8. Helmuth Weidling
9. Heinz Guderian

Number 1 interests me the most. Thank you for your help.

Frankfurter
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Re: A question about cars

#2

Post by Frankfurter » 09 Sep 2012, 12:28

As you ask for people who mostly rose to often dubious prominence during the war, I guess you are not asking for privately owned cars.

Some of these Third Reich VIPs had access to numerous cars due to their position. The Reichskanzlei and ministers had car fleets. So Hitler did not have "a" Mercedes, but quite a lot of them. After 1938, when the new 770K debuted, Hitler seems to have used only that type (pictures taken at official occasions always show him in open cars, Cabriolet Fs and Tourenwagen, mostly armoured, but likely in less official occasions he used an armoured limousine as well although I´ve never seen a photo).

Guderian had a posh Mercedes Cabriolet B. But when at the front, he usually used more rugged Horch commandeur cabriolets.

I have a picture of a 540K with as much as I can identify shows General von Arnim. So the highest generals and especially field marshals, sometimes drove luxurious cars, like von Rundstedt, who had a Horch 851 Pullman convertible, or Rommel, who had the same 770K car as Hitler. Sporty Horch Convertibles were quite common among generals, like pictures of v.Sponeck and others do show. In Africa Rommel sometimes used an Alfa Romeo.
Frankly I dont know about Keitel and Jodl, but as usually far from the front, they surely used civilian cars belonging to the OKW. Mercedes 320 convertibles (especially cabriolet Bs, Ds and Fs) were quite common among the generalcy. The 320 was a car that could be regarded as the "S-class" of its day, an "ordinary" luxury car that didnt stand out in traffic. Dönitz, von Richthofen or von Brauchitsch used 320 "F" (Pullman) convertibles, as did Heydrich.
Probably the coolest car among the Nazis was driven by Field Marshal Kesselring in Italy: a unique Alfa Romeo V12 sports coupé.

As most of the men you are asking for are commanders who were at the front most of the time they´ll more than often be found in rugged commander cars, Kübelwagen and halftracks.

Goebbels used Mercedes, I know he had two Mercedes 540Ks at least, one of them convertible, the other a armoured Innenlenker (2door4seater) delivered in the middle of the war.

Like a Mercedes car buff and classic car collector once said to me, Mercedes was known as the Nazi brand and people who weren´t often avoided that brand because of that.


PiretBCN
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Re: A question about cars

#3

Post by PiretBCN » 09 Sep 2012, 18:39

Thank you for your answer. It was very interesting and informative. Especially the part about Mercedes being considered a Nazi car. I would have thought maybe Volkswagen (Hitler had a whole city built just for the workers of Volkswagen (I suppose the name of the city was changed after the war) or Porsche (Didn't Porsche do some time after the war? For slave labour?) or maybe even BMW (the first husband and the eldest son of Magda Goebbels). Well, most probably Mercedes (Daimler?) owners did something awful as well.
It's interesting that you mention the generals driving Mercedes 320 convertibles. I copy+paste from wikipedia (entry: Erwin Rommel): "Carrying his field marshal's baton, Rommel went to Burgdorf's Opel, driven by SS Master Sergeant Heinrich Doose, and was driven out of the village." So Hitler's Chief Adjutant had an Opel and everybody else had a Mercedes???? That doesn't sound very fair. I thought Hitler quite LIKED Burgdorf. Rochus Misch tells in one of his interviews that Hitler and Burgdorf used to walk together in the winter garden above the Führerbunker during the last few months of the war.

Frankfurter
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Re: A question about cars

#4

Post by Frankfurter » 10 Sep 2012, 19:07

PiretBCN wrote: "Carrying his field marshal's baton, Rommel went to Burgdorf's Opel, driven by SS Master Sergeant Heinrich Doose, and was driven out of the village." So Hitler's Chief Adjutant had an Opel and everybody else had a Mercedes???? That doesn't sound very fair. I thought Hitler quite LIKED Burgdorf.
That Opel certainly was a car being made available to Burgdorf for this special bad occasion. Remember that this event happened about 800 kms from Berlin. Burgdorf almost certainly didnt make such a long journey by car. So that Opel was a local car for sure, not Burgdorfs usual transport in Berlin.
PiretBCN wrote:Especially the part about Mercedes being considered a Nazi car. I would have thought maybe Volkswagen.
The Kdf-Wagen, as it was known in Nazi-times, certainly was too small to be a big Nazi´s car. You wouldnt expect a German minister today in a VW Golf, would you? And btw there was no Porsche brand before or during WWII, and BMW wasnt a luxury brand back then. No, most democratic politicians drive a Mercedes today, as did their brown predecessors in the 30s and 40s. And as did the last emperor. Interesting continuity, isnt it? To add, back in the 30s Mercedes wasnt the best-selling luxury brand in Germany. That title was carried by Horch! Nor were Mercedes particularly reliable cars back then as Mercedes Classic experts told me. Especially the expensive, and undoubtedly beautiful Kompressor cars (imho the 540K series produced the most attractive cars in the company´s history) were not known for reliability.

Forgotten in my first post, I have to add that in terms of luxury Maybach ranked above Mercedes and Horch, though most Maybachs werent as elegant as the Mercedes cars or the Horch Convertibles. Like the modern Maybachs the original ones werent particularly known for elegant style. They were big, conservative, impressive, expensive, very rare and a bit dull. And other than its rivals, Maybach only built true luxury cars. To some extent, they were a kind of German Rolls-Royce, only selling less than a mere 10% of what the undisputed top luxury brand of all time did back then. Of cause some Maybachs were used by high-ranked Nazis, though photos are as rare as the cars. I remember one with Himmler and another one with field marshals von Bock and List inside. Field Marshal von Blomberg even seems to have had a private Maybach Zeppelin, which next to the Mercedes 770K the biggest and most expensive car in prewar Germany.

PiretBCN
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Re: A question about cars

#5

Post by PiretBCN » 10 Sep 2012, 19:48

That Opel certainly was a car being made available to Burgdorf for this special bad occasion. Remember that this event happened about 800 kms from Berlin. Burgdorf almost certainly didnt make such a long journey by car. So that Opel was a local car for sure, not Burgdorfs usual transport in Berlin.
Okay, you make sense but you're also killing me with this. I am an Unterganger and in my parodies Burgdorf ALWAYS drives an Opel. He even made a commercial for them for free (well, I made it but never mind): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9jKAzPk_dE

PiretBCN
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Re: A question about cars

#6

Post by PiretBCN » 10 Sep 2012, 21:06

The Kdf-Wagen, as it was known in Nazi-times, certainly was too small to be a big Nazi´s car. You wouldnt expect a German minister today in a VW Golf, would you?
My comment about the Volkswagen was obviously a silly joke. I shouldn't joke in serious places like this forum.

Bill Murray
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Re: A question about cars

#7

Post by Bill Murray » 10 Sep 2012, 22:43

Your videos are very entertaining, thanks for posting the link.

You did not mention Göring, and much like with his taste for fancy uniforms, he had quite an unusual taste in automobiles.
I have seen photos of him in Cadillac and LaSalle cars in addition to the fancy Mercedes cars. Maybe even also a Lincoln.

If you would like, I can see if I can find some of those photos, please let me know. Actually, I think I have one here.

Cheers
Bill
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PiretBCN
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Re: A question about cars

#8

Post by PiretBCN » 10 Sep 2012, 22:58

Thank you, Bill. As an Unterganger I mainly use the film "Der Untergang" as my template. Göring doesn't speak in the film, so I very rarely use him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=489_-els1lM

I like the character of General Burgdorf a lot (or Burgy as I call him). He's actually my favourite. The character is not 100% Real General Burgdorf though. I like to make parodies about Rommel's death day when Burgdorf was present with his Walther and a cyanide capsule...and about Rommel+Burgdorf in general: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... re=edit_ok

I picked up Burgdorf's Opel in wikipedia (entry: Erwin Rommel) but now it seems it might have not been HIS. This is quite frustrating. I no longer see him in a car that isn't an Opel. He's like an image of Opel for me. If Burgdorf had a Mercedes, I will shoot myself...just like he did. Okay, that was a joke.
Thank you for your photo of Göring's car.

Bill Murray
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Re: A question about cars

#9

Post by Bill Murray » 10 Sep 2012, 23:24

Allo Allo:
A pun for sure, you have a marvelous British sense of humour.

Your links to YouTube are a little difficult as many videos have a "Watch Later" or some such message and only carry the sound. I will try to work around that as I am fascinated by the stuff you do.



Cheers
Bill

PiretBCN
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Re: A question about cars

#10

Post by PiretBCN » 11 Sep 2012, 16:49

I wasn't aware my sense of humour was British. More like deeply sarcastic and Estonian. I didn't like "Allo Allo" when I 1st saw it an eternity ago. I didn't understand it and joking about WW2 seemed somewhere between obscene and bizarre. But I got it after awhile and became a huge fan. Unterganging is more hardcore than "Allo Allo". Most people would consider me a strange freak. Very few men get this humour and almost no women do.
You mentioned having photos of famous WW2 people with cars? I am mainly interested in the cars of the characters (generals) of the film (Jodl, Burgdorf, Krebs, Fegelein) but also in the cars of some characters who are only mentioned in the film and whom I use in the meme as well (Steiner, Guderian). But as I understood from the post of Frankfurter they all had a Mercedes (or several) and that's it. A bit boring. Unless one of them had a yellow/pink/purple/orange/etc Mercedes. That would be interesting.

Bill Murray
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Re: A question about cars

#11

Post by Bill Murray » 12 Sep 2012, 23:26

My friend PiretBCN:

I finally was able to determine how to view your video clips and I think I have looked at the first 20 or so, stopping for now at the Rommel/fox video.

I also seem to have sorted out that you are either of Estonian birth or of Estonian parents and I have no knowledge of the sense of humour of Estonians but it certainly does resemble that of the British and in some cases in your clips, exceeds the British. If one can get past the fact that the major actor is Hitler, and I certainly can, the humour is classic and well understood, at least by me.

I do not want to get into trouble here with a current political statement, but the clip "A Stupid Society" seems to mirror a huge argument we are having here in the US vis a vis the positions of our two candidates for our Presidential Election in November. You are obviously smart enough to figure out what I am saying.

I will continue to look for automobiles used by your "actors" but I do not usually link the photo to the passenger if it is not a personality that is in the top 1% of the German leadership.

Again, I salute you for the materiel you are posting and I really do appreciate your sense of humour/history.
Please do continue.

Cheers
Bill

PiretBCN
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Re: A question about cars

#12

Post by PiretBCN » 15 Sep 2012, 15:46

I am Estonian. I live in Catalonia/Spain at the moment. Estonian humour is not very PC, it can also be very harsh. Estonia has a very painful WW2 history. We were not able to remain independent and were occupied by the Soviet Union. We tried to avoid/delay it (like Finland, except that Finland was far more successful) using all possible methods, incl. putting on the German uniform. As a result Russian propaganda likes to call us Nazis etc (which is ridiculous and just shows they are not familiar or prefer not to be familiar with Generalplan Ost among a few other things). There was one discussion under a Russia Today propaganda piece where a Russian called us Nazis and an Estonian replied something like: "Okay, you are right. We are all Nazis. Sieg Heil from Estonia." And the Russian said: "Ah, you confessed!" "Get a sense of humour!" the Estonian replied.
When I 1st saw Lars von Trier joking about being a Nazi in Cannes, I realized immediately he was joking (I have seen his films!) but there were people who actually thought he was not joking. I guess some people need more basic jokes.
Back to cars, I remember a famous photo with Albert Speer and his children in a BMW. So not everybody close to Hitler drove a Mercedes.

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Matt Gibbs
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Re: A question about cars

#13

Post by Matt Gibbs » 24 Oct 2012, 15:13

Göring also had a Skoda. It was a special top of the range to a pre war design of the Skoda Superb, with a wood gas conversion specially designed into the Sodomka coachwork. At the time it must have been an extremly expensive vehicle.

A lot of the high ranking Nazi's were certainly presented with KdF-Wagens and it seems they were occasionally expected to use them, Artur Axmann recalled using one for a time later in the war, he graphically recalled ditching out of it very quickly to avoid an allied air patrol! ;) Ley had the first one. I remember in VW circles, reading in a book where someone restored one that had belonged to Willy Messerschmitt. There is a photo of a line up of the first ones built and they have special registration plates with the name of the high personalities they are going to.

regards
Matt

Gilesusher
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Re: A question about cars

#14

Post by Gilesusher » 17 Jan 2014, 21:06

Not exactly related to the question but I can recommend the attached as a very good read:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mercedes-Parade ... 0850526574

Nautilus
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Re: A question about cars

#15

Post by Nautilus » 11 Sep 2016, 00:13

Frankfurter wrote:Field Marshal von Blomberg even seems to have had a private Maybach Zeppelin, which next to the Mercedes 770K the biggest and most expensive car in prewar Germany.
Field Marshal von Blomberg had owned at least 2 Maybachs, none of them a DS7 or DS8 ("Zeppelin"):

Image

Maybach W6 DSG (inline-6 engine of 6995cc, semi-automatic preselector gearbox), built with Sport-Cabriolet bodywork in 1932 or 1933, delivered 1933, chassis no. 1021, engine no. 7949 - nowadays Imperial Palace Automuseum in Las Vegas/USA.

Image

Maybach SW38 (inline-6 engine of 3817cc, block used in a slightly different configuration for early Demag D7, SdKfz. 6, SdKfz. 11 half-tracks and Pz.Kpfw. I Ausf. B :) ), with saloon bodywork - nowadays at the Museum for Historical Maybach Vehicles, Neumarkt in der Oberpfalz, Bavaria, Germany.

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