The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#1

Post by tigre » 02 Aug 2013, 17:29

Hello to all :D; a little topic for discussion.................

Training tanks in action...........

The photo shows what would be a typical tank company in the Polish campaign in 1939 during a stop on its march. First a liaison vehicle (PKW), then the command tank (Pz Kw I Befehl), then three Pz Kw II and behind a line of four Pz Kw I. ...............

One of the causes of the heavy casualties suffered by the Panzerwaffe was the high number of Pz Kw I taking part in the Polish campaign (my statement); of the whole tanks engaged there, about 1,026 were Pz Kw I (armed with MG), 1,151 were Pz Kw II (gun 20 mm), 164 Pz Kw 35 (t), 57 Pz Kw 38 (t), 87 Pz Kw III (gun 37 mm) and 197 Pz Kw IV (gun 75 mm).

The armour of this small tank was very light, so that Polish anti-tank rifle penetrated its frontal protection to about 100 meters. For this reason the figures of Pz Kw I reported as total destruction was of 89; against 83 Pz Kw II; 7 Pz Kw 35 (t); 7 Pz Kw 38 (t); 26 Pz Kw III and 19 Pz Kw IV.

Source: http://www.ebay.com/bhp/panzer-photo
Panzertruppen 1933-1942. Thomas Jentz.

What do you think? Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Attachments
image018.jpg
image018.jpg (49.14 KiB) Viewed 3189 times

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#2

Post by tigre » 05 Aug 2013, 18:26

Hello to all :D; something more.................

Training tanks in action...........

The most significant losses occurred in the following divisions: 1. Pz (25 PzKw I) and 4. Pz (46 Pz Kw I), the latter division found strong resistance at Mokra at the beginning of the campaign. Another regiment that had a rough start was the PR 7 (61 Pz Kw I; 81 Pz Kw II; 3 Pz Kw III and 9 Pz Kw IV) at Mlawa where it suffered the loss of 32 tanks, including 7 as total destruction, only on September 1.

Source: Panzertruppen 1933-1942. Thomas Jentz.
1st Panzer-Division 1935-1945. A Pictorial History.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Attachments
image017.png
A destroyed Pz Kw I of the 5./ PR 1 at Petrikau.........................
image017.png (150.37 KiB) Viewed 3084 times


User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 14028
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 15:07
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#3

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 05 Aug 2013, 23:37

I wouldn't consider the Pz Kpfw I losses extraordinary. It was the most common tank in the campaign, so it follows that it would see the heaviest losses. The graph below lists all losses on all fronts in September and October. The Pz Kpfw I certainly didn't fare worse than the other tanks:

Image

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#4

Post by tigre » 06 Aug 2013, 13:07

Hello Christian :D; may be with the figures showed in your graphic, yes....but I could not find such low figures for the Pz Kw I and so high for the Pz Kw 35 (t) and Pz Kw IV. Thanks for sharing here. But anyway, certainly by 1939 the panzerwaffe was not an armoured fist, because the Germans had not on hand a great numbers of real MBT but they were fighting with training machines, so one can explain the relative success of the Polish defenders and the Germans losses at Mlawa, Mokra, Pless/Pszczyna, Wysoka and so on. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Last edited by tigre on 06 Aug 2013, 13:19, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 14028
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 15:07
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#5

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 06 Aug 2013, 13:17

The numbers would likely cover all types of losses, including those which could be repaired. Thus, the number of total write-offs would be smaller. The graph is taken from T78 R146, which has a lot of data and graphs about weapons production and losses.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#6

Post by tigre » 06 Aug 2013, 13:22

Hello Christian :D;
The graph is taken from T78 R146
Thank you very much. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#7

Post by tigre » 08 Aug 2013, 20:18

Hello to all :D; a little more.................

Training tanks in action...........

Another division that had trouble breaking the Polish defensive positions in pszczyna / Pless on September 1, 1939, was the 5. Pz, which had assigned the 8. Pz Brig with PR 15 (Oberst Streich) and PR 31 (Oberst Schukelt). The tanks assigned to both regiments were mostly light.

PR 15: 72 Pz Kw I, 81 Pz Kw II, 3 Pz Kw III and 8 Pz Kw IV.

PR 31: 80 Pz Kw I, 63 Pz Kw II; 0 Pz Kw III and 6 Pz Kw IV.

Another case with heavy losses in tanks, particularly the PR 3 in 2. Pz, took place in the south in the heights of Wysoka; that regiment had available 62 Pz Kw I; 78 Pz Kw II; 3 Pz Kw III and 8 Pz Kw IV. While its brother the PR 4 had 62 Pz Kw I; 77 Pz Kw II; 3 Pz Kw III and 9 Pz Kw IV.

For case the 4. Pz which suffered heavy losses at the beginning of the campaign in Mokra III and before Warsaw, had in its PR 35 99 Pz Kw I; 64 Pz Kw II; 0 Pz Kw III and 6 Pz Kw IV and in its PR 36 had 84 Pz Kw I; 66 Pz Kw II; 0 Pz Kw III and 6 Kw IV. It had no medium tanks!.

After the campaign we heard many voices against the light divisions, including that of Heinz Guderian, however putting into perspective, really it should not have been a surprise, since those poor units did not have a single medium or heavy tank. Particularly affected were those of the XV AK (Mot) of General Hoth, 2. le Div and 3. le Div.

2. le Div (Pz Abt 66) had available 41 Pz Kw I and 42 Pz Kw II ...............
3. le Div (Pz Abt 67) had available 23 Pz Kw II and 55 Pz Kw 38 (t), well that's something .............

With respect to the Austrian light divison the 4. le Div (Pz Abt 33) had 34 Pz Kw I and 23 Pz Kw II ........

Source: Panzertruppen 1933-1942. Thomas Jentz.
WW2 WORLD WAR2 RARE GERMAN PHOTO COLLECTION ON CD.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Attachments
loy9.jpg
A Pz Kw I going cross country .....................
loy9.jpg (44.78 KiB) Viewed 2903 times
image029.jpg
A German armored regiment in its assembly area; in the foreground several Pz Kw I..................
image029.jpg (32.69 KiB) Viewed 2903 times

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#8

Post by tigre » 11 Aug 2013, 16:06

Hello to all :D; a little more.................

Training tanks in action...........

Speaking of instruction's machine, I found this picture which shows two Pz Kw I driving school (Fahrschulpanzer)... Any idea on how many tanks of this type took part in the campaign and in what division?.

Source: http://www.odkrywca.pl

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Attachments
image026.jpg
An armored division in its assembly area before crossing a river .............................
image026.jpg (29.96 KiB) Viewed 2810 times

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#9

Post by tigre » 26 Dec 2013, 16:33

Hello to all :D; a little more.................

Training tanks in action...........

Source: http://www.odkrywca.pl

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

Feliz Año Nuevo - Happy New Year - feliz Ano Novo - gluckliches Neues Jahr - Bonne Année - Felice Anno Nuovo - Szczęśliwego nowego roku!! :thumbsup:
Attachments
image011.jpg
Sochaczew, German light tanks fording the river ....................
image011.jpg (38 KiB) Viewed 2553 times

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#10

Post by tigre » 31 Dec 2013, 14:16

Hello to all :D; a little more.................

Training tanks in action...........

Source: http://www.odkrywca.pl

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

Feliz Año Nuevo - Happy New Year - feliz Ano Novo - gluckliches Neues Jahr - Bonne Année - Felice Anno Nuovo - Szczęśliwego nowego roku!!
Attachments
image024.jpg
image024.jpg (26.31 KiB) Viewed 2453 times
image026.jpg
image026.jpg (42.62 KiB) Viewed 2453 times

recceboy
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 22 Jul 2006, 22:23
Location: Edmonton ,AB .Canada

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#11

Post by recceboy » 04 Jan 2014, 07:13

Training tanks in action ?

I am trying to make sense of this statement. As a retired combat veteran, who has commanded modern German Panzers in combat, took the tanks that we trained on with us into combat. We trained for up to 5 months before going in action and took the tanks we were issued. That makes sense to me, and might have occurred back then. At the German tank school they would have had "training" Panzers. For driving, Panzers without turrets, for gunnery turrets on turret stands etc.
I not sure if they took actual training vehicles into combat in the early war years.
Later on , yes due to shortages in machines.

Anton

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#12

Post by tigre » 04 Jan 2014, 15:13

Hello to all :D; I got your point Anton and thank you very much for sharing it here....My point is that that they (Germans) never thought about the Pz Kw I and II as their MBT, but in the meanwhile they used them to test their doctrine and tactics.....nevertheless when the war broke out they had on hand so very few of the Pz Kw III and Pz Kw IV, therefore they had to take what they had at hand. Hope you've understood my view...on the other hand, I'm not a cavalry man...my only experience was with light armored vehicles as AA platforms. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 14028
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 15:07
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#13

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 04 Jan 2014, 16:52

It is a myth that the Pz Kpfw I and Pz Kpfw II were designed and built as training tanks. They were always considered light combat tanks, and were as such fully equal to their contemporaties.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10550
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#14

Post by tigre » 04 Jan 2014, 18:33

Hello to all :D; thanks for sharing your opinion Christian :wink:. Nevertheless from Heinz Guderian...........

"It was true that the sight of the first light tank - the Pz I, which were meant only for educational (training) purposes and has been issued in 1934 for the first battalion under the command of Major Harpe - little helped to create confidence for the new weapon. Nobody thought in 1932, that one day we must march against the enemy with those little tanks for instruction"

"As the construction of the main types was delayed, General Lutz opted for a solution of compromise in 1934, the Pz II: it was a light tank for reconnaissance purposes as a stopgap; this model had a top speed of about 56 kilometers per hour and a 2-centimeter gun as the main armament".

So in my understanding they weren't "combat tanks" (for Guderian neither). As Guderian said the MBT were of two types, a lighter one armed with a gun of 3,7 cm (Pz III) and one medium with a gun of 7,5 cm (Pz IV). Guderian wished a gun of 5,0 cm for the Pz III.

Sources: KENNETH MACKSEY. GUDERIAN, DER PANZERGENERAL. Der Aufbau der Panzertruppe. Pag 87 on.
Fragmentos Militares de las "Memorias de un Soldado" (Panzerleader). Generaloberst Heinz Guderian. Page 33.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 14028
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 15:07
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: The Pz Kw I in Poland 1939.

#15

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 05 Jan 2014, 00:56

That is from his memoirs, published in 1950, more than 15 years after the Pz Kpfw I was designed. It does not match his ideas in Achtung - Panzer!, which specifically mentions tanks equipped only with machine guns as part of the armored forces. Furthermore, the design requirements specifically called for armor capable of withstanding every fire, which increased the cost considerably.

Post Reply

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”