► Photothread: Umbauwagen

A section dedicated to photo threads on panzer and other Axis vehicles.
Post Reply
User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 9109
Joined: 01 Jul 2007, 08:15
Location: Finland

Re: Umbauwagen

#31

Post by peeved » 10 Sep 2014, 23:31

Piotr Mikołajski wrote:
peeved wrote:Guess that makes the use of or mounting of defensive weapons allowable. But what would those be?
Well, I looked to the Red Cross and Geneva Convention, not to the books about modern combat medicine. Both sources mention personnel weapons, not AA armament.
Re. arming medical vehicles there seems to be varying opinions on what is allowed, e.g.
According to the Report on US Practice, it is the opinio juris of the United States that
[medical] personnel and medical vehicles may be armed, but in international armed conflicts, they may use their weapons only in self-defence and in defence of their patients against marauders and against those enemy forces that do not respect their protected status.
https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/ ... 5_sectionb
Piotr Mikołajski wrote:TBH I don't remember dedicated German medical vehicle with armament.
Removing mounted armament (if any) appears to have been the custom although the Panzerjäger I in the last photo retains its AT gun. From exp. eBay.de. Auction N:os embedded in pic names.

Markus
Attachments
201048816635.jpg
221390100197.jpg
290992924050.jpg

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 9109
Joined: 01 Jul 2007, 08:15
Location: Finland

Re: Umbauwagen

#32

Post by peeved » 11 Sep 2014, 17:24

Post-war Umbau; Demobbed to a voluntary fire brigade. From exp. eBay.de auction N:o 310821273885.

Markus
Attachments
310821273885.JPG


User avatar
Piotr Mikołajski
Member
Posts: 509
Joined: 14 Mar 2011, 19:31
Location: Olsztyn, Poland / Allenstein, Ostpreußen

Re: Umbauwagen

#33

Post by Piotr Mikołajski » 13 Sep 2014, 05:19

peeved wrote:Re. arming medical vehicles there seems to be varying opinions on what is allowed, e.g.
According to the Report on US Practice, it is the opinio juris of the United States that
[medical] personnel and medical vehicles may be armed, but in international armed conflicts, they may use their weapons only in self-defence and in defence of their patients against marauders and against those enemy forces that do not respect their protected status.
https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/ ... 5_sectionb
Excellent quote, let's find source: "Report on US Practice, 1997". Well, written over 50 years after WWII and talks about practice in modern US Army. I don't know how about you but from my point of view this is pretty much useless for disscussion about WWII German vehicles.
peeved wrote:
Piotr Mikołajski wrote:TBH I don't remember dedicated German medical vehicle with armament.
Removing mounted armament (if any) appears to have been the custom although the Panzerjäger I in the last photo retains its AT gun. From exp. eBay.de. Auction N:os embedded in pic names.
I talked about dedicated vehicles, not improvised ones.
Best regards,
Piotr Mikołajski

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 9109
Joined: 01 Jul 2007, 08:15
Location: Finland

Re: Umbauwagen

#34

Post by peeved » 13 Sep 2014, 10:47

Piotr Mikołajski wrote: peeved wrote:Re. arming medical vehicles there seems to be varying opinions on what is allowed, e.g.

According to the Report on US Practice, it is the opinio juris of the United States that
[medical] personnel and medical vehicles may be armed, but in international armed conflicts, they may use their weapons only in self-defence and in defence of their patients against marauders and against those enemy forces that do not respect their protected status.

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/ ... 5_sectionb


Excellent quote, let's find source: "Report on US Practice, 1997". Well, written over 50 years after WWII and talks about practice in modern US Army. I don't know how about you but from my point of view this is pretty much useless for disscussion about WWII German vehicles.
Impossible for me to say since I don't know what legal basis the US government has for its interpretation. Perhaps you could cite some generally accepted period source that specifically forbids self-defence weapons mounted on Red Cross vehicles as opposed to e.g. using Red Cross vehicles to transport weapons to combatants which AFAIK clearly jeopardises the sign protection.
Piotr Mikołajski wrote: peeved wrote:

Piotr Mikołajski wrote:TBH I don't remember dedicated German medical vehicle with armament.


Removing mounted armament (if any) appears to have been the custom although the Panzerjäger I in the last photo retains its AT gun. From exp. eBay.de. Auction N:os embedded in pic names.



I talked about dedicated vehicles, not improvised ones.
Sure but the same rules should apply any vehicles under Red Cross protection; Shouldn't they.

Markus

kerryboo
Member
Posts: 2079
Joined: 08 Nov 2008, 13:29

Re: Umbauwagen

#35

Post by kerryboo » 13 Sep 2014, 19:03

A lightened Opel Super Six as makeshift kubel.
Kerry.
Attachments
img135_new.jpg

SIS 5
Member
Posts: 5893
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 18:27
Location: Germany

Re: Umbauwagen

#36

Post by SIS 5 » 29 Sep 2014, 19:49

Hi,

here a pic of an Umbauwagen, a Chevrolet conveted into a light truck. I´m not sure, could it be the model 1938? (source of the pic: an expired ebay auction).

Regards

Bert
Attachments
Chevy-Umbauwagen.gif
Chevy-Umbauwagen.gif (229.42 KiB) Viewed 2943 times

Bill Murray
Member
Posts: 6341
Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Umbauwagen

#37

Post by Bill Murray » 30 Sep 2014, 00:02

Hi Bert:

Yes, a 1938 Chevrolet Master Deluxe converted into a sort of pickup truck.
Photo below of a restored sedan of that type.
Bill
Attachments
1938-chevrolet-sedan-04 0914.jpg
1938-chevrolet-sedan-04 0914.jpg (45.23 KiB) Viewed 2904 times

kerryboo
Member
Posts: 2079
Joined: 08 Nov 2008, 13:29

Re: Umbauwagen

#38

Post by kerryboo » 30 Oct 2014, 13:47

I think this is another version of the 1938 Chevrolet, serving as an ambulance.
Kerry.
Attachments
img529_new.jpg

Bill Murray
Member
Posts: 6341
Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Umbauwagen

#39

Post by Bill Murray » 31 Oct 2014, 21:08

Time for some more.
Chevrolet 1939
Ford 1935
Ford 1938
Last two are old ebay shots.
Bill
Attachments
chevrolet 1939 umbau beute norway 0314.jpg
chevrolet 1939 umbau beute norway 0314.jpg (34.6 KiB) Viewed 2636 times
ford 1935 umbau german army 0614.JPG
ford 1938 beute unusual body poss umbau sicily 0814.jpg
ford 1938 beute unusual body poss umbau sicily 0814.jpg (65.35 KiB) Viewed 2636 times

Bill Murray
Member
Posts: 6341
Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Umbauwagen

#40

Post by Bill Murray » 31 Oct 2014, 21:17

A few more.
Chevrolet 1939 in the background. Caption is wrong, it is styled like a similar Swiss vehicle.
Chevrolet 1937 Norway.
Chevrolet 1938 Norway.

Bill
Attachments
chevrolet 1939 switzerland car umbau 0114.jpg
chevrolet 1937 umbau beute norway 0314.jpg
chevrolet 1937 umbau beute norway 0314.jpg (30.64 KiB) Viewed 2633 times
chevrolet 1938 umbau beute norway 0314.jpg
chevrolet 1938 umbau beute norway 0314.jpg (39.74 KiB) Viewed 2633 times

Bill Murray
Member
Posts: 6341
Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Umbauwagen

#41

Post by Bill Murray » 31 Oct 2014, 21:22

And a few more.

All German Fords of the 1937 style.
Ex old ebay shots.
Bill
Attachments
ford german umbau radio car 1213.jpg
ford german umbau radio car 1213.jpg (48.92 KiB) Viewed 2632 times
ford 78a german umbau 1213.jpg
ford 78a german umbau 1213.jpg (117.92 KiB) Viewed 2632 times
ford g78 umbau 0114.gif
ford g78 umbau 0114.gif (178.91 KiB) Viewed 2632 times

SIS 5
Member
Posts: 5893
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 18:27
Location: Germany

Re: Umbauwagen

#42

Post by SIS 5 » 13 Nov 2014, 18:20

Hi,

here a pic of an interesting "Umbauwagen", here a captured British Leyland "Retriever", with an improvised German closed cab (source of the cab: an expired ebay auction).

Regards

Bert
Attachments
Leyland-Retriever.gif
Leyland-Retriever.gif (183.74 KiB) Viewed 2481 times

kerryboo
Member
Posts: 2079
Joined: 08 Nov 2008, 13:29

Re: Umbauwagen

#43

Post by kerryboo » 28 Nov 2014, 22:00

I am not sure whether this is a captured military vehicle or an extensive conversion, but, anyway, it is, I believe, a 1940 Chevrolet kubelwagen,
Kerry.
img628_new.jpg

Bill Murray
Member
Posts: 6341
Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
Location: Georgia USA

Re: Umbauwagen

#44

Post by Bill Murray » 29 Nov 2014, 00:48

Hi Kerry:

It is in my opinion an umbau, not a "commissioned military vehicle".
That being said, I wish someone had a good source on the German practice of building small series of such umbau cars.

Over the years, I have collected up lots of photos of umbaus that were pretty obviously one offs or at best the same vehicle rebuilt in very small numbers. On the other hand, Horch in particular, followed by Opel and perhaps Ford vehicles seem to have been built to a fairly rigid specification in rather large numbers. Seemingly in some sort of factory or field factory setting, not a "torch and hammer" job as many others seem to be.

As regards your Chevrolet, I have seen photos of 1937/1938/1939/1940 models that all look to be built to a fairly common specification. Not many, but more than one. Sadly, I did not save all of them or they are sitting in my files with anonymous identifications due to being unsuccessfully moved from one computer to another.

This may have been shown before, but here is a 1938 model that looks very similar to yours.

Bill
Attachments
chevrolet 1938 beute 0814 2.jpg

ilfil
Member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 03 Feb 2009, 19:31
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Umbauwagen

#45

Post by ilfil » 01 Dec 2014, 09:14

Hi Bert, and thanks for the interesting Retriever pic!
SIS 5 wrote: (source of the cab: an expired ebay auction).
This was a laugh, I have to admit :lol: I imagine the Germans buying cabs for their captured vehicles from Ebay! :lol: No offense, I hope.
But seriously, at first I've thought the source of this cab was some FWD SU COE. No way. Quite similar but not the same definitely, apparently a scratchbuild, but fine one!
Thanks again.
Cheers!
"...and on the 8th day He made truck so that man, made on 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night."

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer & other vehicles - Photo threads”