Panzer III July 1944 Operation Goodwood

[keith A]

While reading a history of the Guards Armoured Division I came across this regiments encounters with Panther tanks in July 1944. In a number of engagements they were successful but apart from a few details the descriptions are quite short. I am especially interested in the events of a day in July when two nco's, one of them L/Sgt Mitchell, the other Sgt Harris when their guns destroyed a Panther and four MkIIIS. Can anyone shed any light on this action. I assume the MkIIII were Ausf Gs, Ls and Ms rather than MkIV types which were still in use around with 9 and 10 SS-Pz-Div Arnhem in late 1944?

regards

Keith

[Alanmccoubrey]

Keith, none of the German Divisions engaged in Goodwood had any Panzer III gun tanks, there may have been command versions or artillery OP versions involved though. That said is it not more likely that the "Panzer IIIs" were in fact StuG III's ?

[keith A]

Possible but generally these are referred to as SP guns in the book. I thought it must be a misprint until I saw one source indicate PzIII/L24 or L60s in use as reinforcements for the 9th and 10th SS at Arnhem in September 1944. I know the divisions would be unlikely to be armed with Panzer III as first-line equipment, but three command tanks/artillery op tanks together in one location seems unlikely, and several sources do indicate their presence in ETO 1944-1945.

[Alanmccoubrey]

There were lots of Pz III gun tanks in the Normandy area but none of them belonged to Panzer Division but to units like the Panzer Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung 100 for example. The Pz III's in use in the Arnhem campaign, which is what I assume you are referring to in the "reinforcements" for 9th and 10th SS PD's, in fact belonged to KG Knaust and were part of an Army Training unit.

[jpz4]

Alan, could you define 'lots'?

Also, on 1 June the 21.Pz.Div. had five Pz.III and 116.Pz.Div. had eleven on 8 June. (Zetterling, p.64)

[Michael Kenny]

The Pz III IN 21 PD were all in Command groups. 4 in the command group of Pz Reg 22 and 2 in the command group for 1 Abt Pz Reg 22.

[RichTO90]

The Pz III IN 21 PD were all in Command groups. 4 in the command group of Pz Reg 22 and 2 in the command group for 1 Abt Pz Reg 22.

Yep. The only losses recorded for the west until 30 December 1944 were 49 Befehlspanzer III L/42 and 5 Befehlspanzer III L/60. Two were July, 1 August, and 49 (all the L/42) in September, which likely included "catch ups".

[keith A]

I expect the tanks identified by 21 ATk Regiment were Panzer IV misidentified although they had seen Pz IV before and I can't think of a reason that they's misidentify them. An examination of their battle diary would clear it up to an extent. Did they find the wrecks of the German tanks? I believed that 21 Pz-Div had quite an eclectic mix of tanks in 1944 (Tank Tactics: From Normandy to Lorraine, p.105). I found this this in another forum "Regt 16 had three Ausf. L and M armed with the 5 cm L/60 in its RHQ, and 3 in HQ company of its II Abteilung (here, battalion) plus another three in HQ company of Panzer Regt 22, and one more in I Abteilung. There were others with HQ company of I Abteilung SS Regt 9, while one in the reserve unit 2 Kompanie Panzer Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung 100 (tank replacement and training battalion). " Unfortunately no indication of losses. Another mention in Tanks in Normandy: then and now, regarding 116 PzDiv. "The II Abteilung had only 57 Pzkpfw's available,amongst them four obselete Ausf C's (with the short gun barrel.),with 10 PzKpfw IIIs making up the shortage. Most of these were Ausf J's mounting the long 50mm gun and these were assigned to the Staff Companies of both the Regiment and the II Abteilung." Again no mention of losses.

[keith A]

Just found this from Richard Bullock on another forum...

"According to OB West reports there was a total of 30 known Pz III's in Normandy. Including command tanks, 21st PD had 5 Pz III's on 1 June 1944, while the 116th PD reported 11 Pz III's of various models on 8 June. The Pz Ers u Ausb Abt 100 had 1 Pz III. The 9th SS (Hohenstaufen) had 6 BefPz III's, while 10th SS (Frundsberg) had 3 and 12th SS (Hitlerjugend) 2. Also 4/PzAbt 301 (Funklenk) had 2 Pz III's."

Although again how many of these survived until July is another question.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Keith, the figures given in Panzer Truppen don't agree with those that you quote, Jentz shows none for 9 SS, 3 for 10th SS and none for 12th SS. Nor does the Regimental history of 12 SS Panzer Regiment make any mention of the unit ever having any Pz III of any kind, although the artillery regiment did have 2 OP tanks.

[Michael Kenny]

12th SS also had a captured Cromwell on strength. The real word and Unit returns do not always inhabit the same planet.
What I mean by that is over-reliance on the claimed 100% accurate and complete down to the last bullet German accounting system is not the way forward. .

[RichTO90]

12th SS also had a captured Cromwell on strength. The real word and Unit returns do not always inhabit the same planet.
What I mean by that is over-reliance on the claimed 100% accurate and complete down to the last bullet German accounting system is not the way forward. .

Yep, quite a bit of sloppiness, especially at the unit level, mostly from hasty work it looks like. Often the distinction between various Pz-III disappears (in Italy various Panzerlage identify what are clearly the same vehicles at different times as Pz-III, Pz-III (l), Pz-III (k), Pz-III (7.5), and Flammpanzer, partly because the coding apparently confused the record keepers when it was introduced in late 1943), but the loss accounting should be fairly accurate since it was based on pre-battle inventories. I suspect that most of the tanks identified as Pz-III by the various units were in fact all Befehlspanzer. Also, it seems clear the only L/24 vehicles were actually Pz-IV L/24, 13 were lost in the West through end September.

[keith A]

Apparently the event I mention occurred on 5 August 1944 near Maisoncelle. Anyway, to summarise there's no hard evidence for or against 4 Panzer III being lost on that date, although it seems unlikely. The only way to confirm it would be the evidence of wrecks identified by 21st ATR, and/or losses of any Panzers written in a German war diary....ah well I knew it wouldn't be easy

[keith A]

Success, found this account posted on another forum....

5 August 1944
Today we laid on a “full dress” fire plan. No 4 Coy gained COURTEIL. Then a combat group, consisting of X Coy, one troop of tanks of 2 Armd COLDM GDS, two 6-pr guns, two 17-pr guns, and two 3” Mortars (later reinforced by a platoon of No. 2 Coy) was pushed through COURTEIL to gain the village of MAISONCELLE, 600 metres S.E. They had a great fight, gained their objectives and although in immediate contact with at least 10 German tanks and a coy of infantry, held their positions for 48 hours, and, ably assisted by the two 17-prs, destroyed four MK 3 S.F. guns, one PANTHER tank, one lorry, and captured a Mk 3 S.F. gun intact.

Any idea what an S.F. tank is? Could it be a schwere flak tank? Interesting that they captured one.

[peeved]

Dyslexic SP gun? If so MK 3 SP gun could be e.g. StuG III.

Markus