What units did use Marder III Ausf H in ETO 1944-45?

[Carelian]

Normandy, Lorraine, Market-Garden, Westwall, Ardennes, last defence of Reich in west. Do you have some info about Ausf H participating in these battles? I know that sadly almost every Panzerjäger unit strength report shows only Marder, there are no ausf M or ausf H....

For now, i have heard only 21st Pz and 17th SS in Normandy and later on. I'm not sure about 352. Infanterie Division.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

No units differentiated between the different models of a vehicle in their strength reports, as this was irrelevant to the combat strength of the unit. Only the different guns and sometimes the different chassis were listed. The only way to know which units had a specific model is to either find the chassis numbers in the shipping lists (where available), or to find photographic evidence.

[Carelian]

SS-Pzj.Abt.17 did lost at least one Marder H in Carentan, I presume that these two photos show same vehicle. In church photo it has received some extra damage, missing track etc. Sources: http://triggertimeforum.yuku.com/reply/ ... ry-of-DDay. And http://www.network54.com.

And Martin Block's great info: http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... olor+ideas

3./SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 17 at Carentan on June 13, 1944
September 8 2001, 12:12 PM

A quick check of the excellent unit history of 17. SS-Div. revealed this:

a.) One Sfl. platoon of 3./SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 17 was attached to SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 37 for the attack on Carentan (Divisionsbefehl für den Angriff am 13.6.1944)

b.) ... Our own anti-tank defences were weak, since the 3./SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 17 was the only Panzerjägerkompanie (Sfl.) in the area ... (Divisional history 17. SS about the fighting in the Carentan area)

c.) Equipment losses 17. SS-Div. from the beginning of the Invasion until June 20, 1944 among others (Meldung an den Führer, 20.6.1944):
1 Pak Sfl. 38t 7,5 cm

Initially Carentan was defended by Fallsch.Jg.Rgt. 6. This unit did not have any self-propelled Pak. I'm also not aware that the 1./Pz.Jg.Abt. 352 (14 Panzerjäger 38 (t) für 7,5-cm-Pak 40/3 (Sd.Kfz. 138) 'Marder III') was ever sent to the Carentan area.

So that photo - if it indeed was taken in the Carentan area - might well show a 17. SS-Div. Marder III, although I'm surprised they had Ausf. H!

Martin

[Carelian]

And 352. Pz.Jg.Abt had 14 Marders, few pics show Ausf M but if somebody have ausf H photos it would be nice.

[Carelian]

Damages of this Church going Marder are interesting, has there been some towing that caused loss of tracks... I presume that lower photo is first and then for some reason vehicle has been towed to church yard?

[dave.p]

Here's my two-penneth.
In Stoeber: Sturmflut und das Ende, Band I. A German eye-witness describes what is probably a Marder advancing during their Carentan attack. He notes that it later returns with its commander missing or dead (I forget which). I have always equated this with the American reported success with a rifle-grenade.
The lost Marder referred to by Martin Block is probably the one pictured in Perrigault & Meister: vol 1, p201. According to Stoeber and repeated by Perrigault and Meister, it was destroyed by US air attack 8th June on a train in the railway station at La Fleche. There is a small problem with this theory in that Stoeber describes the lost vehicle as a StuG, he could excusably be wrong a) - he wasn't a witness, b) - the train was carrying both StuGs and Marders.

Dave

[Sheldrake]

Is this what you were looking for? There are probably from the Anti tank abteilung of 346 Infantry Division, or possibly 711th Infantry division.

[Shermaninterest]

did you check this http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... +dial+ups) thread already?

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Is this what you were looking for? There are probably from the Anti tank abteilung of 346 Infantry Division, or possibly 711th Infantry division.

[...]

Those Marder III's looks like Ausf. M, not H.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Martin Block did a listing of the units issued with the Marder III, why not look through it and see who had what but I can't find 711 ID on it any where, perhaps because it didn't ever have an anti-tank battalion to operate any Marders.

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 450#161450

[Richard Anderson]

Martin Block did a listing of the units issued with the Marder III, why not look through it and see who had what but I can't find 711 ID on it any where, perhaps because it didn't ever have an anti-tank battalion to operate any Marders.

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 450#161450

Indeed, 711. Infanterie-Division only had a single Pz.Jg.-Kp. 711. I haven't seen anything on its armament, but suspect it was likely 5cm and 7.5cm PaK...possibly beute.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Richard, I believe that Pz Jgr Kp 711 might well have had the Renault R35 SP or even just the normal tank but I can't find out for certain.

[Sheldrake]

Richard, I believe that Pz Jgr Kp 711 might well have had the Renault R35 SP or even just the normal tank but I can't find out for certain.

It may have received some of Major Becker's SP Guns after "Schnelle Brigade West" was restructured as the 21st Panzer Division. I thunk the Marders are more likely to be from 346th Infantry Division, as their infantry were defending Breville.

[jpz4]

The 711.Inf.Div. has been discussed several times on this very forum.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1704369
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1975063

In December 1943 it had 10 Marder I. The division also had two Pzj.R35, but that doesn't mean they were part of the Pzj.Kp. Those vehicles have a habit of being bodenständig. 10 Marder I is pretty standard in the Pzj.Kp. of divisions of the 700 series.
And yes, this by default means that the Marders at Bretteville belonged to 1./Pzj.Abt.346. [Earlier that division had had Marder I itself BTW]

Also, the two photos related to Carentan are indeed from Carentan. Martin Block has already explained why that company had old type vehicles.
The shot with the tracks presumably shows where it was captured, or first moved to. The footage includes plenty of shots related to the area and the troops fighting there. 3./SS-Pzj.Abt.17 is the only logical explanation.
Vehicles that were recovered from the battle field were towed into Carentan. There also is a Stug IV that was brought them. If the tracks cannot rotate freely, the easiest fix is to removed the tracks. That probably explains why the vehicle has no longer tracks when it was photographed at Carentan church. The other option is that someone wanted the tracks for something else, but I've not seen 2AD tanks with German tracks as extra armor.

No Ausf.H in Pzj.Abt.352, only Ausf.M. There is no reason to suggest anything else.

[Richard Anderson]

The 711.Inf.Div. has been discussed several times on this very forum.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1704369
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1975063

In December 1943 it had 10 Marder I. The division also had two Pzj.R35, but that doesn't mean they were part of the Pzj.Kp. Those vehicles have a habit of being bodenständig. 10 Marder I is pretty standard in the Pzj.Kp. of divisions of the 700 series.
And yes, this by default means that the Marders at Bretteville belonged to 1./Pzj.Abt.346. [Earlier that division had had Marder I itself BTW]

Very good catch; I had forgotten about those posts. Sadly, most of the Beutepanzer and BeuteStuG lage are not in the NARA microfilm collection. The Beutepanzerlage for 31 May 1943 exists, but it only showed 8 Renault R35 with 711. ID.