29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 474
Joined: 08 May 2015, 20:54
Location: San Diego, CA

29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#1

Post by Miles Krogfus » 29 Apr 2016, 01:27

Russian document TsAMO f38 on11371 d16 l11,13 gives this breakdown: evacuated from combat 29,009 tanks and SU's plus 1,847 stuck in mud, sunk in bogs etc., 8,754 fixed at homeland repair depots, 16,129 dismantled (parts used for repairs then scrapped). Of these, 1,322 T26 and T70 combat lost, 73 T26 and 377 T70 depot repaired. 17,532 T34 combat lost, 6,441 depot repaired. 2,784 KV and JS tanks combat lost, 227 KV and 932 JS depot repaired.
Compare these combat losses to those in 1943: 32,539 and 4 months of 1945: 22,372. Note that some tanks and SU's were combat lost then repaired at depots more than once.

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8695
Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#2

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 29 Apr 2016, 09:47

Thank you, Miles!

Jan-Hendrik


Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 474
Joined: 08 May 2015, 20:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#3

Post by Miles Krogfus » 18 Aug 2016, 05:14

Thus G.F. Krivosheev in his important and influential work "Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century" pages 252-253 makes errors in his figures. For example, he takes each supposed end of the year total armor strength, adds a newly produced armor figure for that year, and arrives at his next year's January 1 available figures. He fails to recognize that the previous year's repaired armor total needs to be added to newly produced tank/SU data.
In 1945 22,372 tanks and SU were so badly damaged as to be "evacuated from combat," 2,543 shipped away for repair, 10,471 "dismantled." The seemingly logical view that in 1945 Russian tanks and their crewman fared so much better in combats with Panzers than in 1941 is dubious. Remember that In 1941 a high number of Soviet tanks were lost because of (1) lack of fuel, (2) technical problems and (3) crew abandonment. During 1945 these three elements did not often occur.

User avatar
pintere
Financial supporter
Posts: 459
Joined: 03 Jan 2015, 23:04
Location: Moose Jaw

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#4

Post by pintere » 28 Aug 2016, 16:50

So then how many Russians tanks in '44 would be equivalent to German Totalausfalle?

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 6349
Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#5

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Aug 2016, 18:23

Miles Krogfus wrote:The seemingly logical view that in 1945 Russian tanks and their crewman fared so much better in combats with Panzers than in 1941 is dubious. Remember that In 1941 a high number of Soviet tanks were lost because of (1) lack of fuel, (2) technical problems and (3) crew abandonment. During 1945 these three elements did not often occur.
Indeed Miles, "seemingly logical", but then we need similar breakdowns for 1941, 1942, and 1943 to see if the seeming logic is in fact logic. 8-)

Thanks for the data BTW. :D
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1159
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#6

Post by Stiltzkin » 28 Aug 2016, 19:07

Thanks Miles, thats what I was looking for, though I assumed an improvement (upgrades and Crew experience).

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7028
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#7

Post by Art » 28 Aug 2016, 21:15

Miles Krogfus wrote:Russian document TsAMO f38 on11371 d16 l11,13 gives this breakdown: evacuated from combat 29,009 tanks and SU's plus 1,847 stuck in mud, sunk in bogs etc., 8,754 fixed at homeland repair depots, 16,129 dismantled (parts used for repairs then scrapped).
I don't understand: 16 129 vehicles dismantled included in 29 009 evacuated?
Thus G.F. Krivosheev in his important and influential work "Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century" pages 252-253 makes errors in his figures. For example, he takes each supposed end of the year total armor strength, adds a newly produced armor figure for that year, and arrives at his next year's January 1 available figures. He fails to recognize that the previous year's repaired armor total needs to be added to newly produced tank/SU data.
Eh, why? The math makes perfect sense when you count write-offs.

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 474
Joined: 08 May 2015, 20:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#8

Post by Miles Krogfus » 28 Aug 2016, 21:53

Totalausfalle and Evacuated are equivalent. Dismantled are those of the Evacuated that were not repaired. Initial Russian unit documents from continuing battles (such as Operation Citadel) often state "Burned Out" (totally destroyed) as well as those "Left on the Battlefield" and thus not yet closely checked to see which could be possibly repaired, in addition to those tanks/SU's so badly damaged as to be sent away (Evacuated) for major repair. Dismantled armor had their parts removed and used for repairing other tanks/SU's.
Tiger gunners and commanders whom I corresponded with were in 1945 coming across Russian crews in SU100's and Joseph Stalin tanks that stayed together as platoons (as per the 1944 Soviet Armor Regulations) rather than improvising when attacked and thus were quickly shot up, in part because of their low rates of fire. Note that the JS tank victories over Tigers that we find on the Net are those when crews did creatively and quickly react, adjusting to the situation when coming across Tigers. Often these are the tales of Soviet crews noticing unaware clumps of enemy armor and then swiftly shooting them up . . . I will continue to look through Russian and German documents and check 1944-1945 crew comments for more info on their ages and training.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 28 Aug 2016, 22:30, edited 3 times in total.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#9

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Aug 2016, 22:04

The terminology being used here is far too loose to be able to make any firm judgements. We need to know exactly what is a write off and what gets repaired. It appears to me that damaged and eventual repaired tanks are being counted as total losses for the Russians but not for the Germans.
Are Russian tank and SP losses being compared to German tank losses?

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7028
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#10

Post by Art » 28 Aug 2016, 22:25

Miles Krogfus wrote:Totalausfalle and 29,009 Evacuated are equivalent.
Again, why? Just from a common sense an evacuated and repaired tank was not a total loss and wasn't written off.
tanks/SU's so badly damaged as to be sent away (Evacuated) for major repair
You are misinterpreting things a little, I guess. Evacuation means that a vehicle was towed to a collecting point some kilometers or tens kilometers away, where it was to be inspected by maintenance elements and repaired, if possible. Only vehicles that couldn't be repaired there were shipped to factories further in the rear. Note that repair could be undertaken by mobile maintenance teams on the spot without evacuation, if fact most of them were.

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 474
Joined: 08 May 2015, 20:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#11

Post by Miles Krogfus » 28 Aug 2016, 22:37

"Evacuated" is armor sent completely away from the lesser repairs Art mentions above. Evacuated armor was sent back to Soviet Repair Depots or sometimes to the Tank Factories that made them. "Evacuated" is as the German term "totally lost". These tanks were indeed totally lost to their combat units, and thus German and Russian record keepers have caused your confusion.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#12

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Aug 2016, 23:18

"Evacuated" is as the German term "totally lost". These tanks were indeed totally lost to their combat units, and thus German and Russian record keepers have caused your confusion.
All UK/US tanks sent to the workshops were written off by the unit. The tanks themselves were not total losses just those requiring more than 24 hours for repair. A number would have been repaired and sent back to the tank pool.

It appears now that you say any Soviet sent back for repair is a total loss-even though it could be repaired.

The Germans kept with the unit tanks than could be fixed in 2 weeks (official) and unofficially complete wrecks for spares.
Now we can see why German 'total losses' are always on the low side. A tank that would be counted as a write off in US/UK & Soviet accounting could sit in a German repair shop for at least 2 weeks and then if not repaired treated as a non-combat abandonment.
Comparing like with like should give a truer picture.

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 474
Joined: 08 May 2015, 20:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#13

Post by Miles Krogfus » 29 Aug 2016, 04:48

My post deals with Soviet/German documents and practices, not UK/US ones. As this AHF Forum requires, stick with the current topic. The above post misunderstands German and Russian record keeping terminology and practices. See various earlier posts of mine, as "The Soviet T34 Repair Structure" October 30, 2015. Avoiding scholarship for speculation, indulging preconceptions by posting suppositions is an addiction one should at least try to avoid.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#14

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Aug 2016, 05:17

Miles Krogfus wrote:My post deals with Soviet/German documents and practices, not UK/US ones.
Where exactly did you post German practice?
Avoiding scholarship for speculation, indulging preconceptions by posting suppositions is an addiction one should at least try to avoid.
Your aim is clearly to 'raise' Soviet tank loss numbers and thus improve the bogus 'kill ratio' by posting muddled information and not pointing out that the German 'in repair' totals held tanks that in an Allied unit would be counted as a total loss. By deliberately not mentioning this critical difference you are indulging your preconceptions that ' The seemingly logical view that in 1945 Russian tanks and their crewman fared so much better in combats with Panzers than in 1941 is dubious'.
Current scholarship has moved on from the Kurowski/Schneider dominated 1990s and the uncritical reliance on one side's claims and the promotion of wartime propaganda as fact.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7028
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 29,009 Total Soviet Armor Combat Losses 1944

#15

Post by Art » 29 Aug 2016, 14:21

Miles Krogfus wrote:"Evacuated" is armor sent completely away from the lesser repairs Art mentions above. Evacuated armor was sent back to Soviet Repair Depots or sometimes to the Tank Factories that made them.
Again, it wasn't the case. Typical practice was to establish SPAMs (collecting points for incapacitated vehicles) in the field, vehicles that couldn't be repaired on the spot were towed to a SPAM, where they were examined and repaired by mobile maintenance elements (from a tank brigade's technical company or tank corps' mobile maintenance base, for example). So neither these evacuated armored vehicles were necessarily shipped from a front-line zone nor they were excluded from a unit's roster.
You can find a description of the process in Russian in this article:
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/repair_service/to_btmv.html
and then, of course, from original archival reports.
Totalausfalle and Evacuated are equivalent.
I don't see where it follows from. I know that German tanks units had maintenance elements equipped with heavy towing vehicles (half-tracks or later special armored evacuation vehicles), see for example:
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11871okt37.htm
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11851jun42.htm
It follows from what you say that every tank towed by them was counted as a total loss. That would be the most strange an illogical practice and it also contradicts to details I know. On the other hand tank remaining on enemy territory, or abandoned or destroyed by own crews wouldn't be counted as total losses, and it doesn't make sense either. Personally I believe that is comparison of apples to oranges.

Post Reply

Return to “The Soviet Union at War 1917-1945”