N. African Tanks 1944+, any salvaged by African nations?

[Amnesia]

I am trying to find information of the fighting vehicles used by the North African / African nations during the 20th century. I am wondering if any of the many abandoned / damaged fighting vehicles that were left in North Africa were ever salvaged / repaired / reused / sold after the North African Campaign / World War II.

Basically did any of the African nations use / repair / salvage any of the left over / damaged tanks and or fighting vehicles left behind by the (mainly) European forces that fought there?

[James A Pratt III]

I believe the Eygptian's did salvage and use in the 1948 war one or more German self propelled artillery piece against the Isreali's during the 1948 war. I don't know which one.

[Amnesia]

Okay, although I wonder if Libya and or Tunisia also salvaged any fighting vehicles. Also what you said of that German self propelled artillery piece jogs my memory of the Israeli tank museum with axis equipment used against them captured during the ~1948 war.

[pugsville]

I suspect that such tanks were bought by Syria. syria was pretty desperate fortunes fielding pzIV's in 1967.
in 1948 one battalion of 45 R-35 and R-39 light tanks,pre war french tanks. the lebanese used some ft-17s! much is made of the superioitry of arab equipment in 1948, needs a few grains of salt as these tanks were pretty obsolete, and without great training or spares hardly going to that serviceable.

the problem with salvage is spares and ammunition, with tanks needed spares pretty darn regularly just cannot see salvaged tanks seeing service,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV ... in_service
"While their numbers remain uncertain, Syria received around 60 Panzers that were refurbished in France during 1950-1952, followed by 50 others purchased from Czechoslovakia in 1954.[100] A Soviet DShK machine gun on an anti-aircraft mount was retrofitted on the cupola. These were used to shell Israeli settlements below the Golan Heights, and were fired upon in 1965 during the Water War by Israeli Centurion tanks.[97] Syria received 17 Panzer IVs from Spain; these saw combat during the Six-Day War in 1967.[101]"

[David W]

I seem to think that the self propelled gun in question was the SiG33 on the extended PzKpfw II Chassis. But that is only from flawed memory until I can find the source.

[Amnesia]

Okay, I found more information on pre-1945 North African (Moroccan) tanks in the form of the French Colonies and with the Rif War.

I know this may be a bit 'non-proper' for the ownership is a bit questionable. Anyway here it goes:

Third Rif War (1920-1925)
-Renault FT colomn in the Third Rif War picture (Source: http://balagan.info/timeline-for-the-th ... ar-1920-25 )
http://balagan.info/wp-content/images/w ... briz07.jpg

-Renault FT Kegresse / NC1 / NC27 in 1925, with a new Kegresse suspension and rubber-steel reinforced tracks. This “FT Kegresse” showed better top speed (10.5 mph/17 km/h), and was sent to Algeria and Morocco in 1926 to cope with the Berber rebellion during the “Rif War”. (Source: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/f ... t_NC27.php )

-Schneider CA 1 picture (Source: http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=39213.0 )
http://www.voltansshed.com/stuff/schnei ... ider23.jpg
"On one occasion after the war phased out Schneider tanks were exported. After an urgent request by the Spanish government following serious defeats against Berber rebels in the Rif War, six were sold to Spain on 16 September 1921 within the context of a joint French-Spanish effort to subdue the newly independent Rif Republic. The vehicles were designated Carro de Asalto Schneider M16 and modified by the addition of a driver's visor annex gun port in the front glacis plate. They reached Morocco on 28 February 1922.[87] On 14 March 1922, as the first Spanish tanks to see combat action ever, they provided close support fire. Seen primarily as mobile artillery, they were combined into an artillery assault battery commanded by Captain Carlos Ruiz de Toledo which supported the single Renault FT company. In September 1925 they took part in the major amphibious landings in the bay of Al Hoceima. The Schneider tanks saw action until May 1926 and returned to Spain in 1929, not having lost a single vehicle. In Spain, due to their poor mechanical state, they were delegated to a reserve status and used as training and instruction vehicles. Four were part of the depot of the Regimiento Ligero de Carros de Combate N° 1 at Madrid, a Renault FT unit, the other two were part of the depot strength of RLCC N° 2 at Zaragoza, the other Renault FT unit.[88] At the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War, the first unit remained under Republican command, while the second took the side of the Nationalist rebels. The Madrid vehicles saw some action during the bloody attacks on the Cuartel de la Montaña, the main military barracks of the capital. Some of the tanks were manned by militia members of the Unión General de Trabajadores and the Unión de Hermanos Proletarios.[89] Also the Zaragoza vehicles participated in the initial fighting. Probably all Schneider tanks became inoperational during 1936."(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_CA1


FRENCH ORDER OF BATTLE - MOROCCO – 8th November 1942
...- 1e Régiment de Chasseurs d'Afrique (1e RCA) (about 22 Renault R35 and 22 Hotchkiss H35 / H39 tanks)
...Landing in Fedhala (next to Casablanca) and Cherqui ... - 3 Renault FT17 tanks- about 100 Moroccan tirailleurs
~Fought Against American M5 Stuarts. (Source: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=97956 )

Operation Torch:
-Pre-1945 fighting in Morocco has produced some pictures of US captured Renault FTs here (the link may die but google / search "Soldiers of the 2nd armored division US acquainted with the trophies: light tanks Renault FT-17 captured in Morocco (city of Safi). November 1942. The tanks belonged to the troops of the so-called Vichy detention France, managed to retain power in the North African colonies." ) https://www.pinterest.com/pin/365776800967381771/



Preliminary total pre-1945 terrestrial fighting vehicle models owned / operated by ~Morocco:
-Schneider CA 1
-Renault FT
-Renault FT Kegresse / NC1 / NC27
-Renault R35
-Hotchkiss H35
-Hotchkiss H39

[Ironmachine]

Well, in fact (as can be seen from the text you quoted) they were not owned/operated by Morocco, but by France and Spain. However, if that is still valid for you, you are missing a number of tank models.

[Amnesia]

The ownership of the above French and Spanish tanks might be able to passed off as 'Moroccan' for at the time Morocco was a colony of France and a part of Morocco was also a part of Spain; so some type of technicality might be able to be used but it would be very very shaky at best. Here is a map showing North Africa and how Morocco was divided up in-between France and Spain in 1938. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... AL_MAP.svg

Although you said that I may be missing a number of tanks models, which tank models could I be missing? I would love to know anything more on this matter for I am having a very hard time 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' to find African nation(s) that in some way have had even partial 'ownership' / 'operation' of (a) tank(s) that is not South Africa (Commonwealth) nor Egypt (Middle East) Pre-1945 / Pre-1950.

I should have labeled this thread a bit differently, something like "What African Nations had tanks operating within them ~Pre-1950?". Perhaps I should make a new thread later (after this thread's North African tank 'operation' / 'ownership' research has continued a bit longer) with an updated / expanded field of search for my current findings are getting quite scarce :-S.

[Amnesia]

More research about 'African' tanks (Although not so much exclusively set in North Africa):
-"The 12e régiment de chasseurs d’Afrique got Somua S 35 tanks that are captured by the German in France and given to Vichy. But the 23 tanks got assembled in Dordogne and the German took many parts out of them. Anyway they got transported to Marseille and shiped to Senegal . It is hard to guess how many are in working condition there.

Formed as 2. escadrons of „Groupe Autonome du 1er Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique“
it became in 12e groupe autonome de chasseurs d’Afrique in July 1941 and was used in Senegal.

Only in February 43 it became 12e régiment de chasseurs d’Afrique (12e RCA).
Free French before it left Senegal to North Africa. So they did not fight the allies. Against DAK they lost 4 S 35 tanks."

-"The only photos I'm aware of a Vichy tanks show a Renault FT-17 in the Middle East and an R35 in North Africa. Insofar as you can tell from a B&W photo, the FT is finished in a light mono-tone, probably light stone, and the R35s have a two-tone finish, probably light stone and ochre green. The FT-17 has what appears to be a faded typical French 'card suit' marking on the left of the turret (you may need to zoom right in to see it). The rearmost R35 in the second photo has an obvious marking on the rear turret."

Pictures of Vichy a French Renault FT (date currently unknown) and two (presumably) Renault 35 tanks in North Africa in 1942 respectively:
- http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/ ... 3fe02d.jpg
- http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/Desert/Wd_155.jpg
(Source: http://www.warlordgames.com/forum/viewt ... 49&t=17582 and http://www.oldcmp.net/wdes_5.html for the 1942 date)



TL;DR Another Vehicle to add to the (preliminary) African 'Owned' / 'Operated' Tank List:
- SOMUA S35 (Senegal).

[Ironmachine]

The ownership of the above French and Spanish tanks might be able to passed off as 'Moroccan' for at the time Morocco was a colony of France and a part of Morocco was also a part of Spain; so some type of technicality might be able to be used but it would be very very shaky at best. Here is a map showing North Africa and how Morocco was divided up in-between France and Spain in 1938. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... AL_MAP.svg

No technicality at all can be used in the case of Spain. The tanks were used by Spanish units of the Spanish Army, they were not 'Moroccan' in any way, other than just being there. I suppose the same is true regarding the French.

Although you said that I may be missing a number of tanks models, which tank models could I be missing? I would love to know anything more on this matter for I am having a very hard time 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' to find African nation(s) that in some way have had even partial 'ownership' / 'operation' of (a) tank(s) that is not South Africa (Commonwealth) nor Egypt (Middle East) Pre-1945 / Pre-1950.

I said that if you consider anything owned/operated by the Spanish Army in Morocco as owned/operated by ~Morocco then your were missing a number of tank models. For example, pre-1945 you are missing the T-26B and the Panzer I. But again, these were owned/operated by the Spanish Army, and I can't see no way to justify seeing them as owned/operated by Morocco.

I should have labeled this thread a bit differently, something like "What African Nations had tanks operating within them ~Pre-1950?. Perhaps I should make a new thread later (after this thread's North African tank 'operation' / 'ownership' research has continued a bit longer) with an updated / expanded field of search for my current findings are getting quite scarce :-S."

.
Well, if we go into technicalities, Spain had and have some of its territory in Africa (different to the Moroccan Protectorate), so technically Spain was/is an African nation that had tanks and operated with them pre-1950. This may even made Spain the first African nation to have operated tanks. And it would make possible to include some other tank models that were not even physically present in Africa (geographically speaking). That shows how far one can go by using technicalities...

[OpanaPointer]

I know of an "informal" salvage operation in Tunisia. I was a guest there in 1974. The big guy offered me a deal on a Sherman. Sadly, I couldn't fit it into the microbus.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Ironmachine,

I suspect South Africa (the clue is in the name) may have been the first nation on the continent to operate tanks. Indeed, it raised two entire armoured division and built armoured cars in WWII!

It seems possible that the Egyptian Army got some old Light Tank MkVIs off the British at an early stage, possibly even during the war. However, the British were more interested in supplying anti-aircraft guns with which the Egyptians could secure the 8th Army's rear on the Nile.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Ironmachine]

I suspect South Africa (the clue is in the name) may have been the first nation on the continent to operate tanks. Indeed, it raised two entire armoured division and built armoured cars in WWII!

Spain first used tanks in Africa in 1922. If Spain is an African nation (and if we go into technicalities she could be considered as such), I think that would beat any South African claim for being the first African nation to operate tanks. Now, I was half joking when I posted that, but it is up to Amnesia whether he wants to consider Spain as an African country or not in the context of his question. It is a much more reasonable proposition than considering tanks owned/operated by the Spanish Army in Morocco as owned/operated by Morocco!

It seems possible that the Egyptian Army got some old Light Tank MkVIs off the British at an early stage, possibly even during the war.

It seems so:

Sometime during 1938 or 1939, a light tank unit was formed [...]
The southern desert flank was covered by the ‘South Western Force’ of Egyptian light tanks (six Mk VIB), motorised units and No. 1 Squadron of the Royal Egyptian Air Force (Lysanders).[...]
The Frontier Force squadrons at Siwa were reinforced by four old British Vickers Medium Mk IIA tanks, with crews trained by the Royal Tank Regiment, and a flight of REAF Lysanders [...]

Source: http://homepages.force9.net/rothwell/Egypt.htm

[Amnesia]

I know of an "informal" salvage operation in Tunisia. I was a guest there in 1974. The big guy offered me a deal on a Sherman. Sadly, I couldn't fit it into the microbus.

Where was the M4 Sherman in Tunisia and what condition was the M4 Sherman in?

[OpanaPointer]

I know of an "informal" salvage operation in Tunisia. I was a guest there in 1974. The big guy offered me a deal on a Sherman. Sadly, I couldn't fit it into the microbus.

Where was the M4 Sherman in Tunisia and what condition was the M4 Sherman in?

It was "somewhere in Tunisia", I wasn't driving at that point. And it was one he didn't want, not running. He said the main gun worked and I didn't ask for a demo.