Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

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Sauerteig
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Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#1

Post by Sauerteig » 29 Nov 2016, 18:23

Hi,

I am looking for pics of the 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter. Specifically I am looking for pics of a Panzer IV G at this time and at this unit.

My query is inspired by this somewhat famous piece:

Image

Btw, its for a modelling project, as I am building Dragon's exccellent Panzer IV (LAH Kharkov) kit.

SIS 5
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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#2

Post by SIS 5 » 29 Nov 2016, 19:34

Hi Sauerteig,

in the book "Die 6. Panzerdivision 1937 - 1945" by H. Scheibert there are only two pics of Panzer IV during "Wintergewitter". Here they are.

Regards

Bert
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6-PD---1.gif
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6-PD---2.gif
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Sauerteig
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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#3

Post by Sauerteig » 29 Nov 2016, 23:39

Thanks a lot for those images. I wonder where the artist came up with the black numerals. I really like how those look but if I cannot find any evidence for them, not sure I can do that.

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#4

Post by SIS 5 » 30 Nov 2016, 00:32

Hi Sauerteig,

in a source of Axis History Forum I could find the information, that the 6th Panzer Division had only 23 Panzer IV L (with the long barrel). So the artist made another mistake, because the second Panzer IV has a short barrel.

Operational Tanks at the Outset of Operation Wintergewitter 11th December 1942

6. Panzer-Division: 19 Pz. II, 29 Pz. III K, 63 Pz. III L, 23 Pz. IV L, 4 Pz.Bef.Wg. = 138
(http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&start=15)

Regards

Bert

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#5

Post by Sauerteig » 30 Nov 2016, 02:40

The short barreled tank sorts looks more like a panzer III... If anyone has other images or resources, sure hope this artwork can be corraborated.

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#6

Post by Sauerteig » 01 Dec 2016, 00:55

This may or may not be from the 6th P.D., but it is credited as to Unternehmen Wintergewitter. Again, no markings, which leaves me in a bit of a pickle if I want to more closely replicate the artists rendition. Hope someone else can find more material.
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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#7

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 01 Dec 2016, 01:17

Sauerteig wrote:The short barreled tank sorts looks more like a panzer III... If anyone has other images or resources, sure hope this artwork can be corraborated.
No it doesn't, it is quite clearly a Panzer IV, just look at the driver's front plate, hull mg and driver's visor. Not forgetting the eight road wheels, four return rollers, the access hatches on the front glacis and general Panzer IVishness.
Alan

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#8

Post by Sauerteig » 01 Dec 2016, 01:51

I looked at it again and I agree.

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#9

Post by SIS 5 » 01 Dec 2016, 20:38

Hi Sauerteig,

in the history of the 23rd Panzer Division there is an interesting information:
„Die seit Langem angeforderte Wintertarnfarbe kann infolge von Transportschwierigkeiten nur langsam zugeführt werden. Als behelfsmäßiger Ersatz wird daher Kreideschlämmung empfohlen."
I think the 6th Panzer Division had the same problem coming from France.

Regards

Bert

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#10

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 01 Dec 2016, 20:51

Bert, the more I look at that Panzer IV in the colour plate the more I believe that it is a lang but that the foreshortening effect of the angle makes it look kurz but there is definitely a muzzle brake there.
Alan

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#11

Post by Sauerteig » 01 Dec 2016, 23:01

In my defense, the second tank is not particularly well rendered. When I first looked at it I saw three return rollers. The turret looks off too.

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#12

Post by Sauerteig » 02 Dec 2016, 01:51

Bert,

I found this German language article concerning the 23rd and Unternehmen WIntergewitter:

https://www.welt.de/geschichte/zweiter- ... etter.html

Not sure how to translate Kreideschlaemmung. Perhaps whitening with chalk? I had no idea panzer divisions used this, and also have no idea how to model that in an aesthetically pleasing manner.

It seems to be almost translucent, if those tanks are in fact schwarzgrau.
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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#13

Post by SIS 5 » 02 Dec 2016, 18:09

Hi Sauerteig,

Your translation is perfect. Sorry, I thought You are German because of Your name "Sauerteig".
I think I could find another mistake of the artist: the numbers on the turrets. In the book "Die deutsche Panzertruppe" by Thomas L. Jentz I could find the organisation or structure of the Panzer Regiment 11 of the 6th Panzer Division with the numbers of tanks from November 1942. So only the fourth and eighth company of this regiment could have Pz IV (long), the others had Pz III.

Regards

Bert
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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#14

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 02 Dec 2016, 21:09

What is the German for "white wash" ?
Alan

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Re: Images of 6th Panzer Division during Unternehmen Wintergewitter

#15

Post by Sauerteig » 02 Dec 2016, 22:29

SIS 5 wrote:Hi Sauerteig,

Your translation is perfect. Sorry, I thought You are German because of Your name "Sauerteig".
I think I could find another mistake of the artist: the numbers on the turrets. In the book "Die deutsche Panzertruppe" by Thomas L. Jentz I could find the organisation or structure of the Panzer Regiment 11 of the 6th Panzer Division with the numbers of tanks from November 1942. So only the fourth and eighth company of this regiment could have Pz IV (long), the others had Pz III.

Regards

Bert
Ja ich bin Amerikaner (leider), aber ich kann Deutsch gut genug sprechen. Diese Fruehling und Sommer war ich in Stuttgart gewesen, um einen Arbeitsauftrag auszufuellen.
Ich vermisse Deutschland sehr, aber doch war ich total erstaunt, wieviel Deutschland geaendert hat. Oder soll ich das Wort ,,geschlechtert" nutzen. Und ich muss auch zugeben, dass Stuttgart gar nicht die schoenste Stadt in Deutschland ist.
Auf jeden Fall koennte ich diesen Artikel gut verstehen, den ich in diesem Thema gesteckt habe.
Sauerteig ist nicht meiner echte Name, sondern nahm ich diesen Namen von einem Figur von Thomas Carlyles "Past and Present"

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