Info: Panzerjäger Tiger (P) Elefant Sdkfz 184

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Don't know, to be honest, though being lost on the Eastern Front is a fairly good bet.

[AikinutNY]

The command Tiger(P) 003 was lost fighting the Russians in July 1944. Munch's book does not give the exact time, place or reason for the loss. There could be hope that it was lost crossing a river and someone will drag it from the water someday. There isn't even any record of how it's 88 mm gun performed, just another sad footnote in history.

[egon]

The vast majority of the JPZ-6(p) were deployed and lost in Italy, not on the Russian Front at Kursk. The anecdotes of the designs "weakness" and of them being "overun" and "destroyed", by the Soviets is very much an exaggeration, and plays on the contention that German AFV's were tactically worthless behemoths, which naturally instills more confidence in the Soviet (and western Allied) tank crews sent to confront them.

The question regarding their performance, in actual tank kills is a fair one. The JPZ-6(p) remained on the Ostfront in numbers at least up until Nov 1943. From there most were deployed on the Italian Front, with the 653rd heavy PzJag Btn. et al. Of those, the vast majority seem to have been abandoned/destroyed by their crews, before uncrossable bridges, due to lack of fuel, or lost in Artillery bombardments.

"...Operating in the Kursk combat zone, the Ferdinands knocked out 502 Soviet tanks and destroyeed 20 AT guns, and 100 field guns in the period up 27 july 1943." (Wehrmacht communique Aug 6, 1943)

"...At the Nikopol Bridgehead... the enemy lost 112 tanks.Of those, the 656th heavy PzJag Rgt.... destroyed 54." (Wehrmacht communique Nov 23, 1943)

For a "failure" the Ferdinand seems to have accounted for itself rather well. But post war historians and armour 'experts' would have us convinced otherwise. C'est la vie.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Noone claimed that it didn't perform well. It is not true that the 'vast majority' was lost in Italy, though. By the time they returned to Germany, there were 48 left, out of 89, and they were later deployed in the Eastern Front again.

[AikinutNY]

The Ferdinands in Italy were hamperd by to things. First was the loss of air protection which opened them to attack by the Allies airplanes. The second was their size and the terrain kept them on the roads, some places too hilly for armor and then too muddy for their weight.

[egon]

Noone claimed that it didn't perform well. It is not true that the 'vast majority' was lost in Italy, though. By the time they returned to Germany, there were 48 left, out of 89, and they were later deployed in the Eastern Front again.

yes the point being that the majority of losses occurred in Italy, rather than Kursk, which is what is often implied in many references using the Soviet sources etc.

[Michael Kenny]

The vast majority of the JPZ-6(p) were deployed and lost in Italy, not on the Russian Front at Kursk.

39 were lost at Kursk.

Operating in the Kursk combat zone, the Ferdinands knocked out 502 Soviet tanks and destroyeed 20 AT guns, and 100 field guns in the period up 27 july 1943." (Wehrmacht communique Aug 6, 1943)

As the upper limit for Soviet losses was some 1600 tanks AND assault guns it would be a miracle if a third of all losses were caused by so few Ferdinands.
Has no one heard of the 33-50% reduction applied to all German kill claims?

[egon]

With the enigmatic nature of Soviet data- even if the Wehrmacht's notes were not 100% accurate, the results are impressive nonetheless. Do not find post war analysis to be any less prone to wishful thinking than the Wehrmacht, and particularly the Soviet Army (if the data is made available at all, so high, beyond even Wehrmacht estimates, were Red Army losses, sometimes). But yes, it does appear a staggering figure, and may be subject to some guess work. However one must damn the Btn.'s records, and the crews also, if wanting to write it off as a huge lie.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

egon
The Germans lost 41 Panzerjäger Tiger (P) in Russia before they were returned to Germany to be rebuild. After fighting in Italy, they returned to the Eastern Front. Therefore, unless two or less returned to the Eastern Front, the majority of Panzerjäger Tiger (P) were not lost in Italy.

[Andreas]

However one must damn the Btn.'s records, and the crews also, if wanting to write it off as a huge lie.

No, one must not. That is a line usually trotted out to shut down discussion, and it is a non sequitur. One must consider them prone to error, and Michael is quite right to do so. Since the Ferdinands operated in a sector where the Germans did not overrun the Soviet defenses in any great depth, and afterwards primarily operated in defensive fighting, it is unlikely that kills could be confirmed on the ground in many cases. This means that kill claims were based on remote observation. This would lead to double-counting, counting of damaged tanks as killed, counting of previously killed tanks as killed again, counting of undamaged tanks as killed, counting of near misses as hits, counting of trucks as tanks, and so on. Just have a look at the discussion about who killed Wittmann to get an idea of how difficult it can be to establish what really happened. Battlefields are not shooting ranges where one can neatly compartmentalise events, and officers and soldiers had more important things to do than to keep a tally. Battalion records are not writ handed down from high.

The Soviets records indicate 1,749 TWOs for their AFVs during the defensive phase of Kursk (Töppel 'Die Offensive gegen Kursk'). This is based on the individual front reports. At the next higher level, the stats appear to be intentionally misleading, minimising the damage, but for the front reports, no such caveat is made by Töppel. The basic rule for me is that you never take the claim side, but always the admitting side first, and you can try to verify that through the claims - not the other way round. Especially if the claiming side is an official bulletin for public release, which are not notorious for their balanced reporting on any side, while the admitting side is a set of internal documents.

Also, most of these AFV losses would have been in the southern sector where the Ferdinands were not operating. That alone should give one pause for thought. The loss report for Central Front 5-15 July gives 526 tanks (I presume SPGs are included in this). So while it is theoretically possible that Ferdinands did kill 502 tanks, that would give them an impressive 95.4% of all tanks killed in the Central Front sector. Somehow I do not find that credible, but I also do not think that the battalion KTB writers were liars.

All the best

Andreas

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

It was hinted at previously that the Russian figures were not as accurate as the German ones, in terms of casualties and claims. I think this is largely mythical - both sides exaggerated kill claims, and thus any claims from either side should be taken with a big grain of salt. This can be contributed to the fact that someone would benefit from exaggerating (whether on purpose or not), i.e. the crews. For the same reason, the higher officers knew that the claims could not be trusted.
The casualties, however, would not be in anyones interest to hide internally (propaganda purposes would be something different, but secret army high command documents were not intended for the public, and thus the propaganda factor can't be used here). Furthermore, it would be impossible to hide large discreprencies in the numbers which would arise from deflated casualty reports, no matter how much creative bookkppeing was done.

Therefore, the only reliable source for the casualties in a battle would be the individual sides casualty reports.

[AikinutNY]

The 1st Company of the 653rd was sent to Italy with eleven Ferdinands and one Bergepanzer(P) in Feb 1944. March 44, one stuck in the mud and destroyed, another destroyed after mine damage. Those two are 10% losses and none to Allied guns or planes. June 44 four losses, 25%, one- track damage, one - engine fire and two to air plane attacks. The crews complain that the biggest problem was getting spare parts.
In August 1944 two Ferdinands and one Bergepanzer(P) return to Germany, 90% lost.

The 2nd Company went back to the Eastern front with 32 Ferdinands and two Bergepanzer(P)s. The 1st and 2nd Companies were combined into the 614th Heavy Panzerjäger Company in August/Sept 1944, by January 45 they were done to 4-10 Ferdinands, Feb 45 down to four and those need heavy mechanical repairs. The last two Ferdinands are lost in the battle for Berlin in April 45. Maybe! The History of the 653rd is not real clear when the last Ferdinands were lost one report one detroyed on the main ramp at Mittenwalde and the second at Klein Koris, but then both vehicles make it to Karl-August-Platz and the Trinity Church in Berlin. Another entry lists the last of the Ferdinands destroyed in a Russian attack Jan 12th 1945

So to clear things up a little, only nine Ferdinands were lost in Italy and the rest were lost fighting the Russians.

[Andreas]

The 1st Company of the 653rd was sent to Italy with eleven Ferdinands and one Bergepanzer(P) in Feb 1944. March 44, one stuck in the mud and destroyed, another destroyed after mine damage. Those two are 10% losses and none to Allied guns or planes.

That appears to be a very narrow view of things to me.

All the best

Andreas

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Thanks, AikinutNY

[AikinutNY]

I only condensed and repeated what Münch had written from various crews' letters and journals. That was what was listed for two months worth of entries. The crews also talked about losing crewmembers to artillery barrages when they were looking for food, or their packs getting shredded by shrapnel. They did talk about knocking out some British Shermans. Mostly bemoaned not getting repair parts, hiding under cover from Allied airplanes, how the muddy ground forced them and the Tigers to stay on the roads.

But, the main point was eleven in, two out means that nine were lost. Only two were talked about being lost to enemy action, divebombers, and five to mechanincal or recovery problems. That leaves us with only two vehicles that were not talked about, if you say that they were both lost to enemy action then the 1st Company of the 653 lost 36% of their vehicles to enemy action in Italy, 45% to mechanical or non-enemy actions and returned with 19% of their equipment. If you use the total of Ferdinands available for the war 91 then the losses in Italy are 4.4% to enemy action and 5.5% to non-enemy action. So most of the Ferdinand losses were not in Italy.

I would say that the crews did a great job of keeping their equipment running to have lasted two years with the "poor" quality of the chassis. In the History of the 654th General Guderian was saying that the Ferdinand was to be the spearhead of the Panzers to break thru the enemies defenses, he had the wrong job for the vehicle. All the Russians had to do was wait for the Ferdinand to drive past their position and fire on it from the flanks or rear. The Ferdinand crews talked about getting hit on the front from 152mm guns and IS-II's and not being stopped, but miss a 45 mm antitank gun and they could stop you with shots front the side or back.