Hi!
Anybody interested in italian WW2 tanks & equipments should have a look at this remarkable post
http://forums.revora.net/index.php?s=23 ... entry73622
(I am going to have a look around the whole site..is looks promising)
S!
zipper
Looking for P26/40 pictures/info!
-
PanzerKing
- Member
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: 28 Feb 2003, 03:26
- Location: Texas USA
Zipper I think it should be ok to post those pictures!
How to post them:
You need a host, try http://imageshack.us/, if you upload you pictures there you cannot make anything wrong, just prozess all the steps!
I hope this helps!
How to post them:
You need a host, try http://imageshack.us/, if you upload you pictures there you cannot make anything wrong, just prozess all the steps!
I hope this helps!
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
Hello everybody!
Hi PzKing, yes, I do agree with your point of view, even if italian army was definitely poorly equipped (when not laughably equipped... sort of ....criminal... thing to send out those poor guys on those riveted armour tin cans...) they came out with remarkable things.
I was just observing Decima MAS equipment the other day: the rubber suit was ahead of its times, it was tightly donned to the man's body using strings and the mask and close circuit breathing apparatus were definitely fine.... way ahead of british and american equipment of the period.....
Thanks HCris, I am going to upload those photos now.
I am doing some test with links, so bear with me until I find the best way to do it....
S!
zipper
This is the photo on the first page of the article "Regio Esercito's chimera: the P.40 tank" written from Bruno Benvenuti and Andrea Curami on the italian magazine STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994 (an extremely accurate magazine, sadly written in italian edition only AFAIK).
This P40 is showed still in the original WW2 camo in the main park of "Tank troops school" from Caserta (Italy). It has been since repainted and showed as gate guardian.
The tank looks like an operative tank in last years of WW2, showing the cross shaped jerricans supports on the side
Hi PzKing, yes, I do agree with your point of view, even if italian army was definitely poorly equipped (when not laughably equipped... sort of ....criminal... thing to send out those poor guys on those riveted armour tin cans...) they came out with remarkable things.
I was just observing Decima MAS equipment the other day: the rubber suit was ahead of its times, it was tightly donned to the man's body using strings and the mask and close circuit breathing apparatus were definitely fine.... way ahead of british and american equipment of the period.....
Thanks HCris, I am going to upload those photos now.
I am doing some test with links, so bear with me until I find the best way to do it....
S!
zipper
This is the photo on the first page of the article "Regio Esercito's chimera: the P.40 tank" written from Bruno Benvenuti and Andrea Curami on the italian magazine STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994 (an extremely accurate magazine, sadly written in italian edition only AFAIK).
This P40 is showed still in the original WW2 camo in the main park of "Tank troops school" from Caserta (Italy). It has been since repainted and showed as gate guardian.
The tank looks like an operative tank in last years of WW2, showing the cross shaped jerricans supports on the side
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
Hi!
Still from the STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994, these two photos
On the left photo you can see the very first model's wood mockup of P26/40 (tank on the left) compared to the prototype of M13/40, the standard (47mm L32 gun & 13tons.) medium tank of most of italian tank formations of WW2. Between the two you can see an italian tanker with the typical uniform of the tank service: black leather coat and helmet. The leather coat was supposed to be a good protection against bad weather, as well as less flammable than cloth. The typical leather helmet with rear neck protective flap had a padded band around the circumference to avoid bad bruising the wearer's head if rough terrain driving. It had no pratical splinter or bullet protection.
The left tank is one of the two models proposed to Italian army evaluation: one from the "Ispettorato della Motorizzazione", the governative office for motor vehicles, and the second from the FIAT/ANSALDO group. The one in the photo is the ANSALDO type, and still has the 75/18 gun (the same gun used in the remarkable Semovente assault gun, that was going to be the only decent italian tank to be opposed to british tanks in North Africa) ans a coaxial 20mm. heavy machine gun.
Notice how the turret is still made out from flat armour plates, this design will be actually changed in the second prototype, when the turret will have a rounded shape and the nearly vertical sides of the tank wil became more sloped for better ballistic protection.
The right photo shows the two models from FIAT/ANSALDO (left) and "Ispettorato della motorizzazione" side by side.
Both the wooden mock up have now the 75/32 gun (75mm with 32 caliber lenght, thus 2400mm. barrel) and the coaxial 20mm. heavy machine gun (probably the good 20/65 Breda model 35, a very effective weapon, much appreciated from italians and, later, german troops). The (left) taller ANSALDO has two machine guns in the front glacis, much likely the 8mm Breda modello 38 air-cooled machinegun specially designed for use in armored vehicles, whilst the Ispettorato's model is having the same weapon in a twin mount (like many italian tanlks of the period, the M13/40 & M14/41)
Still from the STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994, these two photos
On the left photo you can see the very first model's wood mockup of P26/40 (tank on the left) compared to the prototype of M13/40, the standard (47mm L32 gun & 13tons.) medium tank of most of italian tank formations of WW2. Between the two you can see an italian tanker with the typical uniform of the tank service: black leather coat and helmet. The leather coat was supposed to be a good protection against bad weather, as well as less flammable than cloth. The typical leather helmet with rear neck protective flap had a padded band around the circumference to avoid bad bruising the wearer's head if rough terrain driving. It had no pratical splinter or bullet protection.
The left tank is one of the two models proposed to Italian army evaluation: one from the "Ispettorato della Motorizzazione", the governative office for motor vehicles, and the second from the FIAT/ANSALDO group. The one in the photo is the ANSALDO type, and still has the 75/18 gun (the same gun used in the remarkable Semovente assault gun, that was going to be the only decent italian tank to be opposed to british tanks in North Africa) ans a coaxial 20mm. heavy machine gun.
Notice how the turret is still made out from flat armour plates, this design will be actually changed in the second prototype, when the turret will have a rounded shape and the nearly vertical sides of the tank wil became more sloped for better ballistic protection.
The right photo shows the two models from FIAT/ANSALDO (left) and "Ispettorato della motorizzazione" side by side.
Both the wooden mock up have now the 75/32 gun (75mm with 32 caliber lenght, thus 2400mm. barrel) and the coaxial 20mm. heavy machine gun (probably the good 20/65 Breda model 35, a very effective weapon, much appreciated from italians and, later, german troops). The (left) taller ANSALDO has two machine guns in the front glacis, much likely the 8mm Breda modello 38 air-cooled machinegun specially designed for use in armored vehicles, whilst the Ispettorato's model is having the same weapon in a twin mount (like many italian tanlks of the period, the M13/40 & M14/41)
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
Drawings taken from pag.27 STORIA MILITARE n°6, March 1994.
This are very early drawings of the P75, an ANSALDO project for a heavy tank that was going to became the inspiration for P26. Note that, contrarily to the italian standard way of numbering tanks as "weight/year of entering in service" (like M 13/40 = Carro Medio 13tons. year 1940) the P75 was called after the caliber of his main gun, a 75/18. It has a 20mm. heavy machine gun in the front glacis and a smaller rear turret with two 8mm. machine guns.
The P75 never left the paper of drawings, and given the generalized bad luck of multi-turreted tanks projects (see T35 russian tanks in Finland War) it is just as good.
This are very early drawings of the P75, an ANSALDO project for a heavy tank that was going to became the inspiration for P26. Note that, contrarily to the italian standard way of numbering tanks as "weight/year of entering in service" (like M 13/40 = Carro Medio 13tons. year 1940) the P75 was called after the caliber of his main gun, a 75/18. It has a 20mm. heavy machine gun in the front glacis and a smaller rear turret with two 8mm. machine guns.
The P75 never left the paper of drawings, and given the generalized bad luck of multi-turreted tanks projects (see T35 russian tanks in Finland War) it is just as good.
-
PanzerKing
- Member
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: 28 Feb 2003, 03:26
- Location: Texas USA
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
Again from STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994, these two photos shows a very early prototype of P26 in 1941.
The left photo shows the P26 (on the left) sided by side with an M14/41. Some remarkable points are the hull twin 8mm. MGs that will be removed in final hull design, and the hull side & glacis that are much closer to vertical than the later, T34 inspired, sides of the standard model.
The right photo shows the same P26 early 1941 prototype seen from its left side. Again the shape of the hull stands out, much resembling a bigger M13 or M14. Interesting to notice are the turret side made with flat armour plates and the lack of side skirts on the fenders .
These two photos are very likely dated to December 1941 as the gun is already a wooden mockup of the 75/32, while the very first tests in Sciarborasca balipedium proving ground taken earlier in 1941 involved a prototype with the wooden mockup of a 75/18 gun.
The left photo shows the P26 (on the left) sided by side with an M14/41. Some remarkable points are the hull twin 8mm. MGs that will be removed in final hull design, and the hull side & glacis that are much closer to vertical than the later, T34 inspired, sides of the standard model.
The right photo shows the same P26 early 1941 prototype seen from its left side. Again the shape of the hull stands out, much resembling a bigger M13 or M14. Interesting to notice are the turret side made with flat armour plates and the lack of side skirts on the fenders .
These two photos are very likely dated to December 1941 as the gun is already a wooden mockup of the 75/32, while the very first tests in Sciarborasca balipedium proving ground taken earlier in 1941 involved a prototype with the wooden mockup of a 75/18 gun.
Last edited by zipper_mx5 on 29 May 2005, 02:08, edited 1 time in total.
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
You already know that the next photo cames from..........from the STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994 
And is the portrait of the very firts prototype in Sciarborasca proving ground, near Genova (Liguria region, north-west coastal Italy). The tank was born and built in FIAT/ANSALDO facilities in Genova, and this is why it could be still producted in late 1943 and 1944, as Liguria was in the RSI area (the german allied fascist Repubblica Sociale Italiana under Mussolini's guidance was ruling over nothern Italy and was born after the facts of 8 September 1943).
And is the portrait of the very firts prototype in Sciarborasca proving ground, near Genova (Liguria region, north-west coastal Italy). The tank was born and built in FIAT/ANSALDO facilities in Genova, and this is why it could be still producted in late 1943 and 1944, as Liguria was in the RSI area (the german allied fascist Repubblica Sociale Italiana under Mussolini's guidance was ruling over nothern Italy and was born after the facts of 8 September 1943).
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
And for now, I stop with a photo of the production model.
Of course, also this shot cames from the invaluables pages of...STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994!!!
This photo, taken in July 1942 at ANSALDO factory, shows the P26 reaching, at least, its final configuration. It is still a pre-serie model, but featuring the revised hull and turret, and the good 75/34 gun. The hull sides are, as we said before, more sloped, and the turret is smaller and its sides and rear are formed from curved armour plates. All in all a better ballistic protection without increasing armour thickness, and a modern look (if not for those damn rivets...they were already proving very dangerous in combat, as a near miss or a shot that could not penetrate the hull, could give the plates such a shock that the plates acted as cutters, snapping off rivet's heads and sending them flying and ricocheting inside the tank combat chamber, actually as deadly as bullets...during North African battles the British have seen italian tanks looking intact but with the crew killed from rivets shooted out by a near explosion).
At the time of the photo, mid 1942, the P26 project was referred to as "Carro Celere P40" (like Fast Tank P40, a concept close to British cruiser tanks), following an order of 500 tanks placed from Italian Army on 22 April 1942.
The original 12 cylinders diesel engine project was abandoned due to big problems to fuel injection device (will see in a next photo...) and a SPA242 420CV gasoline engine installed.
Still no radio set is installed, it will be installed later in 1942.
C'mon, look at it...ain't it a nice thing?
It's enough for now, it's very late in my country now....I'll post some other 6 or 7 shots soon...
Hope you enjoyed them...these old B&W pictures are unbelievable for how many fine details they could represent...it's amazing...you enlarge them twice the size and instead of getting blurred they get only bigger and more detailed....
S!
zipper
Of course, also this shot cames from the invaluables pages of...STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994!!!
This photo, taken in July 1942 at ANSALDO factory, shows the P26 reaching, at least, its final configuration. It is still a pre-serie model, but featuring the revised hull and turret, and the good 75/34 gun. The hull sides are, as we said before, more sloped, and the turret is smaller and its sides and rear are formed from curved armour plates. All in all a better ballistic protection without increasing armour thickness, and a modern look (if not for those damn rivets...they were already proving very dangerous in combat, as a near miss or a shot that could not penetrate the hull, could give the plates such a shock that the plates acted as cutters, snapping off rivet's heads and sending them flying and ricocheting inside the tank combat chamber, actually as deadly as bullets...during North African battles the British have seen italian tanks looking intact but with the crew killed from rivets shooted out by a near explosion).
At the time of the photo, mid 1942, the P26 project was referred to as "Carro Celere P40" (like Fast Tank P40, a concept close to British cruiser tanks), following an order of 500 tanks placed from Italian Army on 22 April 1942.
The original 12 cylinders diesel engine project was abandoned due to big problems to fuel injection device (will see in a next photo...) and a SPA242 420CV gasoline engine installed.
Still no radio set is installed, it will be installed later in 1942.
C'mon, look at it...ain't it a nice thing?
It's enough for now, it's very late in my country now....I'll post some other 6 or 7 shots soon...
Hope you enjoyed them...these old B&W pictures are unbelievable for how many fine details they could represent...it's amazing...you enlarge them twice the size and instead of getting blurred they get only bigger and more detailed....
S!
zipper
Yes, thank you very much for these scans. I take it the next one will be the mechanic showing his disgust of the engine?
iirc the 75/32 field gun could penetrate somewhere around 8cm of armor at the 200-300m range. Considering the calibres are almost the same I would imagine penetration numbers would be similar. Now if they could have squirrelled a 75/46 in there and started production at the beginning of '42, if if if.
iirc the 75/32 field gun could penetrate somewhere around 8cm of armor at the 200-300m range. Considering the calibres are almost the same I would imagine penetration numbers would be similar. Now if they could have squirrelled a 75/46 in there and started production at the beginning of '42, if if if.
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
Hi!
Thanks for your appreciation...errr...I should say..P26 thanks you for your appreciation....
I am sure that if it could be producted in enough numbers (if, if, if....) to be the main battle tank for Ariete division in Northern African teathre, a lot of our young tankers would still be alive...a family friend (I am in my 40s right now, my dad has been fighting WW2 in his late twenties) that was a tank driver (M13/40) in African battles still remembers how they went in battle knowing very well that their tank was no match for most of their opponents......
Anyway, in this photos from STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994, the P26 is portraited at Multedo beach (Genova) during the gun tests in mid 1942.
Notice how this prototype should be at the very last point of pre-series developments, in my opinion (only guessing) a couple of weeks before the stage showed in the last photo (the one took in Ansaldo factory).
See that the gun is of course the 75/34 but the front part of the hull (at front axle height) is still of rounded design (compare it with earlier snaps) while the last pre-serie and production model will have two angled plates.
And another difference are the side skirts of fenders that have a criss-cross stamped design to give the thin metal plate more strenght (dropped in production).
Thanks for your appreciation...errr...I should say..P26 thanks you for your appreciation....
I am sure that if it could be producted in enough numbers (if, if, if....) to be the main battle tank for Ariete division in Northern African teathre, a lot of our young tankers would still be alive...a family friend (I am in my 40s right now, my dad has been fighting WW2 in his late twenties) that was a tank driver (M13/40) in African battles still remembers how they went in battle knowing very well that their tank was no match for most of their opponents......
Anyway, in this photos from STORIA MILITARE n°6 of March 1994, the P26 is portraited at Multedo beach (Genova) during the gun tests in mid 1942.
Notice how this prototype should be at the very last point of pre-series developments, in my opinion (only guessing) a couple of weeks before the stage showed in the last photo (the one took in Ansaldo factory).
See that the gun is of course the 75/34 but the front part of the hull (at front axle height) is still of rounded design (compare it with earlier snaps) while the last pre-serie and production model will have two angled plates.
And another difference are the side skirts of fenders that have a criss-cross stamped design to give the thin metal plate more strenght (dropped in production).
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
and in these photos, again from......STORIA MILITARE, n°6 March 1994 we see two important moments of P26's life:
On the left the photo I can'y not laugh at when I see it... (I am/have been a mechanic myself, I remember very well the feeling of...pure hate, sometime...that a damn engine can inspire you when is refusing to start...).
Anyway, the desperate mechanic and his friend are portraited during the tests conducted on the diesel engine that was supposed to be installed on P26. Don't know the period or the location (it has anyway to be between July 1942 and early 1943) of the shot, but I know that the engine was giving serious trouble because of bad fuel injection device. Apart from being a well known issue with that diesel engine, you can clearly see the dismantled injection lines assembly (those 1/2" long curved pipes that are visible just on top of the 6 exhaust pipes in the lower part of the photo...)
The right photo is taken on 20 October 1943 in Arys balipedium (proving ground). Five P26s captured from germans just after 8 september 1943 were presented to Adolf Hitler and to the german high ranks. The wooden mockup of Jagdtiger is showing in the photo as well. As I wrote in my first post (thanks to all the good infos from the article written from Bruno Benvenuti and Andrea Curami) the germans have been already discussing the P26 chances of being incorporated in german army as beutepanzer (captured tank), finding it no worse than Pz.IV, and so giving it the SonderKraftFahrerZeug designation of designation Panzerkampfwagen P40 737(i).
Note the white small numbers on armour plates referring to thickness and angle of sloping and a new style turret hatch in a single piece instead of the two smaller commander and gunner twin hatches.
On the left the photo I can'y not laugh at when I see it... (I am/have been a mechanic myself, I remember very well the feeling of...pure hate, sometime...that a damn engine can inspire you when is refusing to start...).
Anyway, the desperate mechanic and his friend are portraited during the tests conducted on the diesel engine that was supposed to be installed on P26. Don't know the period or the location (it has anyway to be between July 1942 and early 1943) of the shot, but I know that the engine was giving serious trouble because of bad fuel injection device. Apart from being a well known issue with that diesel engine, you can clearly see the dismantled injection lines assembly (those 1/2" long curved pipes that are visible just on top of the 6 exhaust pipes in the lower part of the photo...)
The right photo is taken on 20 October 1943 in Arys balipedium (proving ground). Five P26s captured from germans just after 8 september 1943 were presented to Adolf Hitler and to the german high ranks. The wooden mockup of Jagdtiger is showing in the photo as well. As I wrote in my first post (thanks to all the good infos from the article written from Bruno Benvenuti and Andrea Curami) the germans have been already discussing the P26 chances of being incorporated in german army as beutepanzer (captured tank), finding it no worse than Pz.IV, and so giving it the SonderKraftFahrerZeug designation of designation Panzerkampfwagen P40 737(i).
Note the white small numbers on armour plates referring to thickness and angle of sloping and a new style turret hatch in a single piece instead of the two smaller commander and gunner twin hatches.
-
zipper_mx5
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 20 Aug 2004, 13:48
- Location: Florence, Italy
and the sad day of 8 september 1943 cames....the older enemies becames our allies and vice-versa...Italy in few weeks will be broken in two.
In the south half of Italy and of italians became "cobelligerant" (they were denied the more privileged status of "Allies"), the northern half finds itself under German domination in spite of the efforts of Mussolini and his RSI Repubblica Sociale to keep the status of full Axis nation. Many years (up to 1947/1948) of bloody civil war will follow...
The germans start to use italian industries for their benefit, and thus we will see things like this
a full lineup of P26s in ANSALDO facilities ready to be delivered probably to german army. The use of P26 from RSI troop is AFAIK well proven, but definitely the bulk of italian production was going to fall in german hands...
The camo scheme is the typical late war continental scheme of brown, dark green and dark yellow. To compare the shades of this camo to the well known german three colour camo, I would quickly notice that the brown was darker and not at all reddish like german shade, the green was darker and more grey, and dark yellow was slightly darker than german european yellow. I know that such a reference would make my fellow modellers hang me at the closest tree, but modelling and the exact tone of italian continental green has small to do with this topic...
If you notice, at the extreme left of the P26s you can see the gun of what have to be two M43 Semovente 105/25 "Bassotto"
(like Dachshund, the small "sausage" dog, well known for his small height), a self propelled artillery piece that never had the chance to show it's qualities as only a few were delivered before armistice (fighting against germans in the defence of Rome, 8-9 September 1943), it was much better than the earlier and already remarkable Semovente M40 da 75/18.
See how low are the barrels of the almighty 105/25 gun...imagine how difficult had to be such a low target to be aimed at, especially if half buried in the typical semi-static "belly down" position...the germans panzer troops, very well aware of the value of a good self propelled gun in defensive role, very happily used all the Bassotto they could lay their hands on...
Ah..I was forgetting...this photo cames from STORIA MILITARE n°6, March 1994....
In the south half of Italy and of italians became "cobelligerant" (they were denied the more privileged status of "Allies"), the northern half finds itself under German domination in spite of the efforts of Mussolini and his RSI Repubblica Sociale to keep the status of full Axis nation. Many years (up to 1947/1948) of bloody civil war will follow...
The germans start to use italian industries for their benefit, and thus we will see things like this
a full lineup of P26s in ANSALDO facilities ready to be delivered probably to german army. The use of P26 from RSI troop is AFAIK well proven, but definitely the bulk of italian production was going to fall in german hands...
The camo scheme is the typical late war continental scheme of brown, dark green and dark yellow. To compare the shades of this camo to the well known german three colour camo, I would quickly notice that the brown was darker and not at all reddish like german shade, the green was darker and more grey, and dark yellow was slightly darker than german european yellow. I know that such a reference would make my fellow modellers hang me at the closest tree, but modelling and the exact tone of italian continental green has small to do with this topic...
If you notice, at the extreme left of the P26s you can see the gun of what have to be two M43 Semovente 105/25 "Bassotto"
(like Dachshund, the small "sausage" dog, well known for his small height), a self propelled artillery piece that never had the chance to show it's qualities as only a few were delivered before armistice (fighting against germans in the defence of Rome, 8-9 September 1943), it was much better than the earlier and already remarkable Semovente M40 da 75/18.
See how low are the barrels of the almighty 105/25 gun...imagine how difficult had to be such a low target to be aimed at, especially if half buried in the typical semi-static "belly down" position...the germans panzer troops, very well aware of the value of a good self propelled gun in defensive role, very happily used all the Bassotto they could lay their hands on...
Ah..I was forgetting...this photo cames from STORIA MILITARE n°6, March 1994....