Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#46

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Aug 2008, 03:33

Michael, I don't have my copy of James handy at the moment, but IIRC it went down sharply from 1923, that was only a short time into Retrenchment. Dowding's 1940 letter would be referring to the results of the Air Exercises of 1935 - that was I think the last set of Air Exercises that fed into Cabinet spending approvals for the RAF during that year...but THAT was after three years planning and the beginnings of growth from February 1933 on. If I can find it tomorrow, The Paladins has a very full set of tables at the back illustrating James' point about the growth of the RAF being planned as early as 1933...so it has full details on squadron numbers and aircraft strength through the decade.

ONE thing to remember - in those days "Home Defence" INCLUDED the bomber force! The definition was "Home Defence" (offence is the best defence) versus Imperial Defence requirements...all those old WWI aircraft bombing natives in the Hindukush etc.

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6647
Joined: 17 Feb 2004, 02:12
Location: Europe

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#47

Post by Jon G. » 12 Aug 2008, 10:26

Michael Emrys wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:He [Dowding]...in a letter to the Air Ministry, said
5. I would remind the Air Council that the last estimate which they made as to the force necessary to defend this country was fifty-two squadrons...
A historic sidebar to the present discussion: The figure of 52 squadrons may in fact date back to the year 1923...
Dowding's memo is reprinted in its entirety in Wood & Dempster's The Narrow Margin, p.97. The 52 squadron figure was apparently what Dowding thought he would need to counter a Luftwaffe attack coming from the east, i.e. with France still being in the picture. The fifty-two figure was raised from an original estimate of forty-six; no date is given, but the estimate must have been made after the outbreak of war.

The total breakdown of RAF forces in France on May 10 is somewhat inaccurately given as '400 aircraft in twenty-five squadrons. Eight squadrons - 12, 88, 103, 105, 142, 150, 218 and 226 - had Fairey Battles; six - 1, 73, 85, 87, 607 and 615, all equipped with Hurricanes - made up the fighter component, and the balance was made up of Lysanders and Blenheims. On May 11 three more Hurricane squadrons - 3, 79 and 504 - were sent to France. It's stated that ten Hurricane squadrons were operating in France by the 12th (the number of the last squadron is not given), and on the 13th 'the equivalent of two more squadrons*' were sent over from England.

On the 14th Reynaud requested ten more squadrons to be sent over, which was what prompted Dowding's rather sharply worded letter. Regardless, Churchill still wanted to send more fighters to France, but he was working with a reduced figure of four squadrons because there were not enough airfields for a full ten squadrons, or so he was informed. As a compromise, Sir Cyril Newall, the Chief of the Air Staff, suggested that six fighter squadrons could rotate in and out of France, with three squadrons arriving in the morning and another three flying in in the afternoon as the others withdrew. This system apparently was used from May 17 to May 19, when Churchill finally decided not to commit any more aircraft to France; it's stated in Wood & Dempster's narrative on p. 99 that the six rotating squadrons were the only Hurricane units left in Fighter Command which had not so far contributed pilots and planes to the campaign in France.

It's not clearly spelled out anywhere that no Spitfires were sent to France, but Wood and Dempster do all their counting in Hurricanes, and they state on p. 100 that Dowding only threw in his Spitfires for Operation Dynamo, having husbanded them carefully up to that point. However, it was close - as the supply of Hurricanes was running low 19 Squadron at Duxford (which had Spitfires) were told on May 18 that they would move to France, but apparently this order was cancelled before it could come into effect.


*I wonder if 'squadron equivalents' means that the Hurricanes sent over on the 13th came as replacements for already committed squadrons, rather than as fresh squadrons?


User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#48

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Aug 2008, 18:08

Okay...some figures form James, The Paladins...

First, for comparison...Table 2 Disposition of RFC and RNAS Operational Sqns by theatre, March 1918 (pre-amalgamation, when the number of indvidual sqns was at its highest...)

164 Squadrons in ALL theatres...of which 68 in the UK...

By 1922 - from Table Location of Squadrons A Overseas and B UK : regular Squadrons...

1922 Overseas 9 , Uk.....11! (This included TWO fighter, TWO bomber, TWO Army Coop,.... 8O )

Making the grand total around the globe of TWENTY!!!

By 1925 this had risen to

1925 Overseas 21 and in the UK 23

A grand total of 44 squadrons...

This rose VERY slowly through the rest of the decade, and on until 1933. when the numbers sat at

1931 Overseas 23, and in the UK 35.

A total of 55...of which only 14 were fighter squadrons, and 11 were bomber squadrons...

However - the situation began to change markedly from 1933...when the Air Staff began planning the expansion of the RAF in all Commands, through the Air Exercises of 1935 and later in the year the Cabinet approving spendoing plans based on the results of that...and the spiralling up of growth to 1938. The figures for 1939 we're all acquainted with.

1933 Overseas 23, in the UK 37

1937 Overseas 27, in the UK 93!!!

1938 Overseas 27, in the UK 104

A total on the eve of war of 121 RAF squadrons. The 1938 breakdown in the UK was however...only 25 fighter squadrons in that total, versus 56 in Bomber Command.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 12 Aug 2008, 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#49

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Aug 2008, 18:40

A couple of points for information; because sometimes various authors are not too clear...

1/ The Air Staff is not the AIr Ministry. The "Air Staff" is the RAF General Staff...

2/ The "Air Ministry" was the civilian government ministry repsonsible for the RAF and British civil aviation in the period; It had Air Staff Officer representatives on its "corporate governing body" - the Air Council - but was responsible upwards to Cabinet via the Minister for Air.

3/ A fighter "squadron" is NOT just twelve aircraft and pilots; It's ideally twelve aircraft plus pilots plus four of each in reserve...plus three dedicated ground crew per aircraft - a rigger, a mechanic and an armourer. There's 64 already...plus maintenance staff, admin, services etc....the ancillary staff running the squadron's buildings, quarters, messes, etc. Without sitting and reading through James again, IIRC the number was well into three figures to put that 12 aircraft in the air. An RAF fighter "squadron" was a LARGE integrated organisation...

4/ So to "grow" the number of suadrons wasn't JUST a case of finding twelve...or rather 16...new pilots from somewhere; it meant grafting on a cadre of trained and experienced officers and NCOS from elsewhere...ONCE you've found the men to replace them in their ORIGINAL units!!!...building new stations, finding new ground crew from the RAF technical training process...and leavening THESE from experienced ground crew elsewhere...and THEN after some time - starting the process AGAIN! 8O

Think of it more as the division of multiplying cells in the womb :lol: BUT each division has to produce a fully-effective creature BEFORE it can divide again.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#50

Post by phylo_roadking » 12 Aug 2008, 18:43

*I wonder if 'squadron equivalents' means that the Hurricanes sent over on the 13th came as replacements for already committed squadrons, rather than as fresh squadrons?
It COULD also mean, say...three flights from one squadron, one from another - counting as twelve aircraft, thus the "equivalent" of a squadron?

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#51

Post by phylo_roadking » 13 Aug 2008, 04:18

Okay, this is as far as I've got regarding Spitfires actually in France...

Definitely - as of May 10th 1940, there was exactly ONE confirmed RAF Spitfire in France - a PR MkIA with the Special Service Unit for aerial photography... and one fighter MkI - a Spitfire supplied to the French government in late 1939 as first of a possible batch of export Spitfires to France.

Now - note the phrase in bold - as of May 10th 1940 - I'm still trying to track down an article I remember in Flypast a couple of years ago about Spitfires in France. Could be spurious, of course, but if I ever come across it I'll post on it. It's not impossible a Spitfire sqn COULD have been rotated to France and back again during the Phoney War...I can't find a definitive listing of RAF activities In France between September 1939 and May 1940.

However - I was PARTLY right about the Time Team investigation...
On May 23, 1940, a formation of Spitfires took off from England to protect the retreating British Soldiers
near the Channel coast. In the combat that followed several aircraft were shot down by the opposing Luftwaffe fighter pilots.

One of the Spitfires was being flown by Sergeant Paul Klipsch from No. 92 Squadron. His aircraft crashed in farmland to the north-east of Boulogne and he was killed. At the time of the crash the advancing German troops
had just over-run the village near to the crash site and it was left to the villagers to provide a burial for the unfortunate pilot.

With the help of Paul Klipsch's brother, an air crash investigator, historians and Spitfire restorers, the Time Team set out to unravel the events of combat fifty-nine years after it took place.
Now - the first Spitfire operations OVER FRANCE as part of the battle of France WERE on the 23rd....but actually, Spitfire squadrons had been officially authorised to operate over the continent as of May 10th...except it wasn't UNTIL later in the month that the ground war actually came within operational range of Spitfires from Kent.

michammer
Member
Posts: 12
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 00:35
Location: Michigan

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#52

Post by michammer » 23 Aug 2008, 22:08

Jon G. wrote: The total breakdown of RAF forces in France on May 10 is somewhat inaccurately given as '400 aircraft in twenty-five squadrons. Eight squadrons - 12, 88, 103, 105, 142, 150, 218 and 226 - had Fairey Battles; six - 1, 73, 85, 87, 607 and 615, all equipped with Hurricanes - made up the fighter component, and the balance was made up of Lysanders and Blenheims. On May 11 three more Hurricane squadrons - 3, 79 and 504 - were sent to France. It's stated that ten Hurricane squadrons were operating in France by the 12th (the number of the last squadron is not given), and on the 13th 'the equivalent of two more squadrons*' were sent over from England.

I believe that the tenth Hurricane squadron was 501, which moved to France either on the evening of May 10th or the morning of May 11th. I will have to look in Terraine as that is where I recall reading it.

Also, iirc 607 and 615 were still in the process of converting from Gladiators to Hurricanes so were not full strength Hurricane squadrons.

Juha
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 29 Sep 2005, 11:38
Location: Finland

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#53

Post by Juha » 26 Aug 2008, 12:03

Interesting discussion!

Mars
Quote:"According to Peter Cornwell's "The battle of France then and now": between Sep 1939 to May 9 1940 Luftwaffe lost 354 aircrafts and 445 air crews killed or missing in the west, and between May 10 to Jun 24 Jun 1940, Luftwaffe lost 1814 aircrafts and 3278 air crews killed or missing in the west"

Is the 1814 a/c LW losses really for 10.5. - 24.7.40? The reason I ask is that if it is for 3.9.1939 - 24.6.40 it would be in line of the numbers given by Groehler and Hooton, but if it is number for those lost 10.5. - 24.6.40 it is 386 - 413 a/c bigger than those given by the other 2 authors.

Juha

mars
Member
Posts: 1174
Joined: 03 Oct 2002, 20:50
Location: Shanghai

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#54

Post by mars » 26 Aug 2008, 17:14

Juha wrote:Interesting discussion!

Mars
Quote:"According to Peter Cornwell's "The battle of France then and now": between Sep 1939 to May 9 1940 Luftwaffe lost 354 aircrafts and 445 air crews killed or missing in the west, and between May 10 to Jun 24 Jun 1940, Luftwaffe lost 1814 aircrafts and 3278 air crews killed or missing in the west"

Is the 1814 a/c LW losses really for 10.5. - 24.7.40? The reason I ask is that if it is for 3.9.1939 - 24.6.40 it would be in line of the numbers given by Groehler and Hooton, but if it is number for those lost 10.5. - 24.6.40 it is 386 - 413 a/c bigger than those given by the other 2 authors.

Juha
you are correct, Juha, it is for 3.9.1939 - 24.6.40 ,I got confused in those tables

Juha
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 29 Sep 2005, 11:38
Location: Finland

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#55

Post by Juha » 26 Aug 2008, 21:45

Mars
Thanks for the clarification.

Juha

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#56

Post by bf109 emil » 01 Oct 2008, 08:42

what if the 400 or so downed Luftwaffe pilots including the much heralded Werner Mölders had been sent to Britain prior to their being released after the armistace was signed??
-Mölders went on to score another 76 victories alone after his release and ended with a 101. How many if not hundreds where claimed by the freeing of these already downed and captured pilots, and how did they impact the BoB by being set free to fly again? Mölders alone downed 28 planes in the BoB but this might be deceiving as Luftwaffe tactics still resembled those used in WW1 where they used hunter type tactics and the wingman had little chance to score

JD
Member
Posts: 97
Joined: 18 Nov 2004, 07:10
Location: Australia

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#57

Post by JD » 14 Jun 2015, 07:23

Thought I might resurrect this thread, given that it is exactly 75 years ago...

A question for those in the know. We have a lot of detail on RAF deployments and very little on French AF deployments. If anyone here has any info on this I would be very grateful because it is seriously under covered.

Secondly, there would have been German machines lost to ground fire but this does not seem to have come up. Anyone know what percentage of the total losses it might have involved?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#58

Post by ljadw » 14 Jun 2015, 08:57

On the first question (source : l'action de l'armée de l'air en 39/40) some concise figures:

The following French aircraft were available in may1940:

fighters : 640

bombers :240

reconnaissance : 500

victories:
500-550 + 100 by the anti-aircraft defence

losses:between 1500 and 2000

JD
Member
Posts: 97
Joined: 18 Nov 2004, 07:10
Location: Australia

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#59

Post by JD » 16 Jun 2015, 06:52

Thanks. I have not seen that sourse.

This looks interesting:

http://france1940.free.fr/adla/ada_mai.html

Klaus1943
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: 05 Oct 2014, 23:27

Re: Luftwaffe losses France, 1940

#60

Post by Klaus1943 » 26 Jun 2015, 01:59

The best source for the Luftwaffe's fighter force (single-engine) is Jochen Prien's multi-volume Die Jagdfliegerverbände which lists in Volume 3 all of the losses of the fighter units which include 284 destroyed and 178 damaged while claiming 1233 kills from 10 May to 25 June 1940 during the French campaign. The campaign in Norway is covered separately.

Post Reply

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”