Battle of Britain victory claims
Battle of Britain victory claims
SOMEWHERE recently I saw a notation that combined Luftwaffe fighter & bomber aerial victory claims in the BoB ran around 3,050 (period covering 10 July to 31 Oct.) According to most sources that would've been about 3X Fighter Command's acknowledged losses. But whatever the disparity, I'm trying to find a reliable source for an upcoming 75th anniversary article. Danke to one und all!
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Fighter Command wasn't the only air command with aircraft involved in BoB. Just a reminder.
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Correct, Dennis. Space limits us to Fighter Command.
Frank kindly provided info on the eight JGs engaged, totaling some 1,700 claims. Evidently the ZG info has not been compiled, and I've never even heard of KG claims, which apparently could be considerable on some days.
Frank kindly provided info on the eight JGs engaged, totaling some 1,700 claims. Evidently the ZG info has not been compiled, and I've never even heard of KG claims, which apparently could be considerable on some days.
-
- Member
- Posts: 214
- Joined: 08 Oct 2010, 05:04
- Location: Tasmania
- Contact:
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Hi Barrett,
From the daily Luftwaffe situation reports:
10 July 1940, in air combat: 8 Bristol Blenheims, 14 Spitfires, 1 Hurricane, 12 fighters (Spitfires & Hurricanes)
11 July 1940, in air combat: 8 Spitfires, 1 Hurricane, 1 Blenheim at St. Homer
12 July 1940, in air combat: 3 Spitfires (east coast and Channel)
13 July 1940, in air combat: 2 Spitfires, 2 Spitfires at Dover, 6 Hurricanes at Dover, 1 Blenheim at Brunsbuettelkoog, 1 Blenheim 50 km NW of Borkum
14 July 1940, in air combat: 4 Hurricanes at Dover
15 July 1940, in air combat: none (destruction of a flying-boat not yet confirmed)
16 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Bruges
17 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim (north of Cherbourg), 1 Spitfire (over the Channel)
18 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Spitfire at Deal, 1 Blenheim off Orfordness, 1 Blenheim at Flushing, 1 Blenheim at Harwich, 2 Blenheims at Le Havre
19 July 1940, in air combat: 4 Spitfires over Isle of Wight, 2 Spitfires at Folkestone, 1 Spitfire at Dover, 1 Hurricane over centre of Channel, 12 single-engined aircraft, probably Defiants, over centre of Channel, 1 aircraft (type not known) at Muenster, 1 Whitley at Burgsteinfurt (S. of Rheine)
20 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Sunderland off the Norwegian coast, 2 Blenheims at Rotterdam, 1 Blenheim at Portland, 3 Hurricanes at Dover, 1 Spitfire NW of Folkestone, 2 Spitfires at Portland, 2 Wellingtons N of Muenster, 1 Hurricane at Portland
21 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Hurricane over the Channel, 2 Lockheed Hudsons off Kristiansand, 1 Whitley at Muenster
22 July 1940, in air combat: none
23 July 1940: 1 Blenheim (at Ostende), 2 aircraft (type not known) 200 km W of Texel
24 July 1940, in air combat: 4 Spitfires, 1 Spitfire probably destroyed
25 July 1940, in air combat: 14 Spitfires over the Channel, 1 Hurricane over the Channel, 1 Breguet 690 over the Channel, 1 aircraft, type not known, over Luftgau VI, 2 Blenheims
26 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Hurricane over the Channel
27 July 1940, in air combat: 2 Spitfires at Portland and Falmouth, 1 Hurricane at Dover
28 July 1940, in air combat: 4 Spitfires over the Channel, 2 Hurricanes over the Channel, 1 Blenheim at Den Helder
29 July 1940, in air combat: 12 Spitfires over the Channel, 4 Spitfires east of Harwich, 3 Hurricanes over the Channel, 1 Blenheim at Texel, 1 Blenheim
30 July 1940, in air combat: 2 Blenheims
31 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Alkmaar, 1 Blenheim at Lemnick, 4 Spitfires at Dover, 1 Lockheed Hudson at Kristiansand
1 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Haamstede, 1 Blenheim 25 km west of Haamstede, 2 Blenheim at Cherbourg, 1 Blenheim probably shot down at Cherbourg in an air battle
2 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Ijmuiden, 1 Blenheim over Lake Ijssel
3 August 1940, in air combat: none
4 August 1940, in air combat: none
5 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Spitfire 15 km W of Cap Gris Nez, 3 Spitfires SW of Dover, 1 Spitfire over the Channel, 1 Spitfire at Ramsgate, 1 Hurricane E of Deal, 1 Curtiss over centre of Channel
6 August 1940, in air combat: none
7 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Lockheed Hudson SW of Bergen
8 August 1940, in air combat: 43 Spitfires and Hurricanes over the Channel, 1 Hampden over the Channel, 3 Blenheims over the Channel, 12 barrage balloons were shot down
9 August 1940, in air combat: none
10 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Le Havre
11 August 1940, in air combat: 2 Curtiss, 56 Spitfires, 25 Hurricanes, 4 Blenheims, 1 aircraft (type not known)
12 August 1940, in air combat: 46 Spitfires, 23 Hurricanes, 1 Morane [plus 12 destroyed on the ground]
13 August 1940, in air combat: 70 Spitfires and Hurricanes, 18 Blenheims, 2 aircraft, type not known, 12 barrage balloons [plus 42 destroyed on the ground]
I have the rest, but unfortunately don't have time to copy it all down at the moment. Hope the above is useful anyway.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
From the daily Luftwaffe situation reports:
10 July 1940, in air combat: 8 Bristol Blenheims, 14 Spitfires, 1 Hurricane, 12 fighters (Spitfires & Hurricanes)
11 July 1940, in air combat: 8 Spitfires, 1 Hurricane, 1 Blenheim at St. Homer
12 July 1940, in air combat: 3 Spitfires (east coast and Channel)
13 July 1940, in air combat: 2 Spitfires, 2 Spitfires at Dover, 6 Hurricanes at Dover, 1 Blenheim at Brunsbuettelkoog, 1 Blenheim 50 km NW of Borkum
14 July 1940, in air combat: 4 Hurricanes at Dover
15 July 1940, in air combat: none (destruction of a flying-boat not yet confirmed)
16 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Bruges
17 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim (north of Cherbourg), 1 Spitfire (over the Channel)
18 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Spitfire at Deal, 1 Blenheim off Orfordness, 1 Blenheim at Flushing, 1 Blenheim at Harwich, 2 Blenheims at Le Havre
19 July 1940, in air combat: 4 Spitfires over Isle of Wight, 2 Spitfires at Folkestone, 1 Spitfire at Dover, 1 Hurricane over centre of Channel, 12 single-engined aircraft, probably Defiants, over centre of Channel, 1 aircraft (type not known) at Muenster, 1 Whitley at Burgsteinfurt (S. of Rheine)
20 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Sunderland off the Norwegian coast, 2 Blenheims at Rotterdam, 1 Blenheim at Portland, 3 Hurricanes at Dover, 1 Spitfire NW of Folkestone, 2 Spitfires at Portland, 2 Wellingtons N of Muenster, 1 Hurricane at Portland
21 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Hurricane over the Channel, 2 Lockheed Hudsons off Kristiansand, 1 Whitley at Muenster
22 July 1940, in air combat: none
23 July 1940: 1 Blenheim (at Ostende), 2 aircraft (type not known) 200 km W of Texel
24 July 1940, in air combat: 4 Spitfires, 1 Spitfire probably destroyed
25 July 1940, in air combat: 14 Spitfires over the Channel, 1 Hurricane over the Channel, 1 Breguet 690 over the Channel, 1 aircraft, type not known, over Luftgau VI, 2 Blenheims
26 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Hurricane over the Channel
27 July 1940, in air combat: 2 Spitfires at Portland and Falmouth, 1 Hurricane at Dover
28 July 1940, in air combat: 4 Spitfires over the Channel, 2 Hurricanes over the Channel, 1 Blenheim at Den Helder
29 July 1940, in air combat: 12 Spitfires over the Channel, 4 Spitfires east of Harwich, 3 Hurricanes over the Channel, 1 Blenheim at Texel, 1 Blenheim
30 July 1940, in air combat: 2 Blenheims
31 July 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Alkmaar, 1 Blenheim at Lemnick, 4 Spitfires at Dover, 1 Lockheed Hudson at Kristiansand
1 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Haamstede, 1 Blenheim 25 km west of Haamstede, 2 Blenheim at Cherbourg, 1 Blenheim probably shot down at Cherbourg in an air battle
2 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Ijmuiden, 1 Blenheim over Lake Ijssel
3 August 1940, in air combat: none
4 August 1940, in air combat: none
5 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Spitfire 15 km W of Cap Gris Nez, 3 Spitfires SW of Dover, 1 Spitfire over the Channel, 1 Spitfire at Ramsgate, 1 Hurricane E of Deal, 1 Curtiss over centre of Channel
6 August 1940, in air combat: none
7 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Lockheed Hudson SW of Bergen
8 August 1940, in air combat: 43 Spitfires and Hurricanes over the Channel, 1 Hampden over the Channel, 3 Blenheims over the Channel, 12 barrage balloons were shot down
9 August 1940, in air combat: none
10 August 1940, in air combat: 1 Blenheim at Le Havre
11 August 1940, in air combat: 2 Curtiss, 56 Spitfires, 25 Hurricanes, 4 Blenheims, 1 aircraft (type not known)
12 August 1940, in air combat: 46 Spitfires, 23 Hurricanes, 1 Morane [plus 12 destroyed on the ground]
13 August 1940, in air combat: 70 Spitfires and Hurricanes, 18 Blenheims, 2 aircraft, type not known, 12 barrage balloons [plus 42 destroyed on the ground]
I have the rest, but unfortunately don't have time to copy it all down at the moment. Hope the above is useful anyway.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Andrew, that is just tremendous. It's what we Yanks would call The Big Rock Candy Mountain of information!
I cannot access the URL but would like to acknowledge the site in any case.
I cannot access the URL but would like to acknowledge the site in any case.
-
- Member
- Posts: 214
- Joined: 08 Oct 2010, 05:04
- Location: Tasmania
- Contact:
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Hi Barrett,
Happy to help. The website linked at the end of my post is my personal website (which is obviously having some technical problems at the moment).
The sources for the July/August 1940 Battle of Britain information I posted are the following Australian War Memorial files: AWM 54 423/4/103 Parts 83, 84, and 87. These are the translated versions of the Luftwaffe Lageberichte.
And here's a little bonus from NARA T77 (same source, the Luftwaffe Lageberichte, although those from NARA are in German):
14 September 1940, in air combat: 15 Spitfires, 10 Hurricanes
15 September 1940, in air combat: 51 Spitfires, 26 Hurricanes
16 September 1940, in air combat: 1 Spitfires, 2 Hurricanes
17 September 1940, in air combat: 4 Hurricanes, 3 Spitfires
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Happy to help. The website linked at the end of my post is my personal website (which is obviously having some technical problems at the moment).
The sources for the July/August 1940 Battle of Britain information I posted are the following Australian War Memorial files: AWM 54 423/4/103 Parts 83, 84, and 87. These are the translated versions of the Luftwaffe Lageberichte.
And here's a little bonus from NARA T77 (same source, the Luftwaffe Lageberichte, although those from NARA are in German):
14 September 1940, in air combat: 15 Spitfires, 10 Hurricanes
15 September 1940, in air combat: 51 Spitfires, 26 Hurricanes
16 September 1940, in air combat: 1 Spitfires, 2 Hurricanes
17 September 1940, in air combat: 4 Hurricanes, 3 Spitfires
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Always interesting to compare claims v. enemy losses--almost a secondary occupation when I was secretary of the fighter aces assn.
(Rule of thumb: cut the Confirmed in half and ignore the Probables.)
I'm assuming the figures cited are for JGs only without ZGs and KGs although apparently the GAF bombers could be as enthusiastic in their claims as US gunners!
(Rule of thumb: cut the Confirmed in half and ignore the Probables.)
I'm assuming the figures cited are for JGs only without ZGs and KGs although apparently the GAF bombers could be as enthusiastic in their claims as US gunners!
-
- Member
- Posts: 214
- Joined: 08 Oct 2010, 05:04
- Location: Tasmania
- Contact:
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Hi Barrett,
Based on my own research, I entirely agree that a 50 per cent accuracy rate for aerial victory claims is pretty good, and aircraft "probably shot down" were almost never shot down!
The claims I listed are for all flying units in combat, including J.G., Z.G. and K.G..
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Based on my own research, I entirely agree that a 50 per cent accuracy rate for aerial victory claims is pretty good, and aircraft "probably shot down" were almost never shot down!
The claims I listed are for all flying units in combat, including J.G., Z.G. and K.G..
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Thanks again Andrew; that's excellent info. Surely appreciate your consideration.
related topic: After Ray Toliver's bio of Hartmann, EH's claim of 90% shootdowns by surprise became accepted as gospel. But I doubted it because of the scores/hundreds? of "debriefs" over the years/decades at aces reunions. Among all that wrist-watch shooting, hardly anybody ever mentioned surprising an enemy or being surprised. Just stands to reason: you jump a formation, hose No. 4 or No. 16 (whatever) and the others are immediately alerted. So I drafted a poll that eventually was published in USAF Fighter Weapon Review. We got over 200 replies from WW I to Vietnam and the results were surprisingly consistent. Theater to theater and war to war the figures ran around 20-25% hitting an aircraft before it took evasive action (Somewhat less in the radar era of Korea and Vietnam). Reading von Richthofen's reports (and he had to be the ultimate Stalker) 20 of his 80 apparently were taken by surprise.
related topic: After Ray Toliver's bio of Hartmann, EH's claim of 90% shootdowns by surprise became accepted as gospel. But I doubted it because of the scores/hundreds? of "debriefs" over the years/decades at aces reunions. Among all that wrist-watch shooting, hardly anybody ever mentioned surprising an enemy or being surprised. Just stands to reason: you jump a formation, hose No. 4 or No. 16 (whatever) and the others are immediately alerted. So I drafted a poll that eventually was published in USAF Fighter Weapon Review. We got over 200 replies from WW I to Vietnam and the results were surprisingly consistent. Theater to theater and war to war the figures ran around 20-25% hitting an aircraft before it took evasive action (Somewhat less in the radar era of Korea and Vietnam). Reading von Richthofen's reports (and he had to be the ultimate Stalker) 20 of his 80 apparently were taken by surprise.
-
- Member
- Posts: 214
- Joined: 08 Oct 2010, 05:04
- Location: Tasmania
- Contact:
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Hi Barrett,
Interesting comments about the element of surprise in air combat.
Found the attached whilst looking for something else. These are the official German aircraft loss figures for July-October 1940 for the Western Front, compiled from their day-by-day loss returns. These figures were for internal Luftwaffe use only (to request replacement aircraft), so should be the genuine figures. Hope they are of use for your article (although you may have seen them before).
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Interesting comments about the element of surprise in air combat.
Found the attached whilst looking for something else. These are the official German aircraft loss figures for July-October 1940 for the Western Front, compiled from their day-by-day loss returns. These figures were for internal Luftwaffe use only (to request replacement aircraft), so should be the genuine figures. Hope they are of use for your article (although you may have seen them before).
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
That is just tremendous--many many thanks.
Because the GAF used the percentage basis for reporting aircraft damage, I wonder if there was a level at which a damaged airframe was automatically considered destroyed. 40% 50% 55% ? I've seen a/c listed as 95%, which presumably only could've been used for spare parts!
Because the GAF used the percentage basis for reporting aircraft damage, I wonder if there was a level at which a damaged airframe was automatically considered destroyed. 40% 50% 55% ? I've seen a/c listed as 95%, which presumably only could've been used for spare parts!
-
- Member
- Posts: 214
- Joined: 08 Oct 2010, 05:04
- Location: Tasmania
- Contact:
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Hi Barrett,
I've often seen 99 per cent in reports. Thanks to researcher Norbert Schuchbauer, here are the Luftwaffe loss categories:
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
I've often seen 99 per cent in reports. Thanks to researcher Norbert Schuchbauer, here are the Luftwaffe loss categories:
For the purposes of reporting, I believe that 60 per cent or above was considered a loss."Er. Replacement necessary, aircraft can not be repaired with the means available in the field.
10% Small damage. Later in the war it was not even mentioned in the damage reports.
10 - 24% Medium damage. Could be repaired by unit.
25 - 39% Damage that required an inspection by the unit.
40 - 44% Damage that required engines or major systems to be replaced. Often the unit was able to carry out these repairs.
45 - 59% Heavy damage. Required larger section like wings to be replaced.
60 - 80% Aircraft was unsalvageable. Usable parts were cannibalized to repair other aircraft.
81 - 99% Write off, crashed on own territory.
100% Write off, crashed on enemy territory or over water."
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
When I think of the tangled/mangled wrecks I've seen turned into prize-winning antique airplanes, 59% seems reasonable!
-
- Member
- Posts: 214
- Joined: 08 Oct 2010, 05:04
- Location: Tasmania
- Contact:
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Hi Barrett,
Some more figures:
13 August 1940, in air combat: in addition to those listed above, add 2 Blenheims and 7 barrage balloons shot down
14 August 1940, in air combat: 12 Spitfires, 5 Hurricanes, 1 aircraft, type not known
15 August 1940, in air combat: 82 Spitfires and Hurricanes, 5 Curtiss, 14 unidentified fighters, at least 8 unidentified aircraft destroyed on the ground at Martlesham, 10 fighters probably shot down, 5 barrage balloons shot down
18 September 1940, in air combat: 21 Spitfires, 3 Hurricanes, night fighters claimed 1 Hampden-Hereford and 1 aircraft, type unknown
19 September 1940, in air combat: 1 Bristol-Blenheim, 1 barrage balloon
20 September 1940, in air combat: 7 Spitfires, 5 Hurricanes, 1 Bristol-Blenheim
21 September 1940, in air combat: 1 Spitfire, 1 Bristol Blenheim
22 September 1940, in air combat: none
23 September 1940, in air combat: 17 Spitfire, 4 Hurricane
24 September 1940, in air combat: 14 Spitfire, 3 Hurricane, 1 Bristol-Blenheim
25 September 1940, in air combat: 8 Spitfire, 1 Bristol-Blenheim east of Marck
Have attached the German estimates of RAF losses 1 July-15 August 1940.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Some more figures:
13 August 1940, in air combat: in addition to those listed above, add 2 Blenheims and 7 barrage balloons shot down
14 August 1940, in air combat: 12 Spitfires, 5 Hurricanes, 1 aircraft, type not known
15 August 1940, in air combat: 82 Spitfires and Hurricanes, 5 Curtiss, 14 unidentified fighters, at least 8 unidentified aircraft destroyed on the ground at Martlesham, 10 fighters probably shot down, 5 barrage balloons shot down
18 September 1940, in air combat: 21 Spitfires, 3 Hurricanes, night fighters claimed 1 Hampden-Hereford and 1 aircraft, type unknown
19 September 1940, in air combat: 1 Bristol-Blenheim, 1 barrage balloon
20 September 1940, in air combat: 7 Spitfires, 5 Hurricanes, 1 Bristol-Blenheim
21 September 1940, in air combat: 1 Spitfire, 1 Bristol Blenheim
22 September 1940, in air combat: none
23 September 1940, in air combat: 17 Spitfire, 4 Hurricane
24 September 1940, in air combat: 14 Spitfire, 3 Hurricane, 1 Bristol-Blenheim
25 September 1940, in air combat: 8 Spitfire, 1 Bristol-Blenheim east of Marck
Have attached the German estimates of RAF losses 1 July-15 August 1940.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - http://www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
Re: Battle of Britain victory claims
Excellent/exceptional material. It's interesting to compare RAF and GAF in-commission rates which seem to have been comparable at c. 70% for most of the Battle. Maintenance remains perhaps the most overlooked aspect of WW2 aviation.