Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

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mirekw
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#91

Post by mirekw » 12 Sep 2015, 17:29

An interesting discution, a lot of texts and a few figures. The losses concerning destroyed buldings in IX 1939 in Warsaw were as follow

According to the report of one of the members of the underground, working in the Police Headquarters in 1942, Warsaw, before 1 September was 18 495 buildings in Warsaw, of which during the defense did not undergo any damage to only 2,645 (14.3%), buildings damaged (mild to severe) was 13 847 (74.86 %) and entirely destroyed buildings were in 2007 (10.85%).

Of course the destruction the city was done not only by Luftwaffe units, but also by heavy artillery (guns 105, 150 mm, and even 88 mm A/A were used to attack the city). German had gathered around 1000 (yes: 1000) heavy guns to attack the city in IX 1939, and they did it.

It is not possible to make distinction, which losses were done by Luftwaffe and which by artilery fire? The one shell of 150 mm guns menas, a one air bomb of 50 kg. Heavy artillery had covered the whole city by own fire.

Personal losses are only estimation from 20.000-25.000 killed civilians. The amount of wounded is better know and were about 20.000 civilians wounded plus next about 16.000 soldiers wounded in Warsaw hospitals.

Regards,
mirekw

mirekw
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#92

Post by mirekw » 08 Oct 2015, 20:23

In October 2015 has been published material that I am the author, on "Obrona przeciwlotnicza czynna Warszawy w 1939 roku/The Active A/A Defence of Warsaw in 1939". The text has 32 black-and-white photos, three maps, one table and one colored silhouette side (Me109 D).
The text describes the struggle of the Pursuit Brigade fighters (PZL P-11, P-7) and anti-aircraft artillery batteries of the Luftwaffe attacks on the city from 1 to 27 September 1939. Text is 100 % Polish.

See: Wojsko i Technika - Historia (Military History and Technique) No. 1/2015, pp. 32-49.

regards
mw

http://zbiam.pl/wojsko-i-technika-historia-12015/


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4thskorpion
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Re: Die deutsche Luftwaffe und der Holocaust (The German Luftwaffe and the Holocaust)

#93

Post by 4thskorpion » 23 Dec 2015, 14:56

Die deutsche Luftwaffe und der Holocaust (The German Luftwaffe and the Holocaust)
Illustrierter Vortrag von Hubert Brieden (Illustrated Lecture by Hubert Brieden)
Date: 03.03.2010
Auch Bomberbesatzungen des Kampfgeschwaders Boelcke aus der Region Hannover, von den Fliegerhorsten Wunstorf und Langenhagen , hatten als Bestandteil der Legion Condor Luftangriffe gegen republikanische Städte auf der iberischen Halbinsel geflogen, darunter den auf die baskische Ortschaft Guernica .

Am 1. September 1939 starteten die Flieger zum Angriff auf Ziele in Polen. Anders als bis heute va in der regionalen Geschichtsschreibung rund um den Fliegerhorst Wunstorf behauptet, wurden neben militärischen Zielen auch Wohnviertel bombardiert. Doch nicht nur das: Am 13.9.1939 flogen deutsche Bombereinheiten einen Angriff gegen das große jüdische Viertel in Warschau. Die Besatzungen orientierten sich an Luftbildern, auf denen die jüdischen Wohngebiete besonders markiert waren. Nach dem Abwurf von rund 7000 Brandbomben und eigens präparierten Brandtanks standen ganze Straßenzüge des jüdischen Viertels in Flammen und waren tagelang nicht zu löschen.

Der Luftangriff auf das jüdische Viertel in Warschau war kein Einzelfall. Und auch das Kampfgeschwader 27 Boelcke war an ähnlichen Angriffen beteiligt. In Wunstorf, Langenhagen und Hannover weiß man von alledem bis heute nichts .

Dargestellt werden die aktuellen Forschungen des Arbeitskreises Regionalgeschichte zu einem verschwiegenen Kapitel der deutschen Militärgeschichte: der Beteiligung der deutschen Luftwaffe am Vernichtungskrieg gegen die polnischen Juden.
Google translation of part:
On 09/13/1939 flew German bombers units an attack against the large Jewish quarter in Warsaw. The crews were based on aerial photographs on which the Jewish residential areas were particularly highlighted. After the release of approximately 7,000 incendiary bombs and specially prepared fire Tanks whole streets of the Jewish Quarter were in flames and were for days to clear.

The air attack on the Jewish quarter in Warsaw was not an isolated case. And the Kampfgeschwader 27 Boelcke was involved in similar attacks.

mirekw
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#94

Post by mirekw » 23 Dec 2015, 17:16

"einen Angriff gegen das große jüdische Viertel in Warschau".

There were in Warsaw around 1.300.000 people in Warsaw in IX 1939, among civil there were about 380.000 Polish Jews in Warsaw (or Poles Jews orygins). Some of them had lived in some areas (later German had done a big getto, there excluding Poles and settled all Warsaw's Jews from other districts of Warsaw, including Praga and from smaller towns around Warsaw like Pruszków, Otowck, Wołomin ect too (1940-1941).

There were no any specific Jew's distric (big getto) in Warsaw before 1.09.1939, there were no marked boudarises of it too. Of course Warsaw was a one, big city for Polish Jews before 1.09.39.

Of course German after seizure of Warsaw had opened such getto (das große jüdische Viertel), but it was German extermination policy and law agains Poles and Jews. Later in 1942/43 German deliberatlby anhilated almost all Warsaw Jews in Treblinka extermination camp or other extermination camps. This is other story


Regards
mw

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4thskorpion
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#95

Post by 4thskorpion » 23 Dec 2015, 18:34

mirekw wrote:"einen Angriff gegen das große jüdische Viertel in Warschau".

There were in Warsaw around 1.300.000 people in Warsaw in IX 1939, among civil there were about 380.000 Polish Jews in Warsaw (or Poles Jews orygins). Some of them had lived in some areas (later German had done a big getto, there excluding Poles and settled all Warsaw's Jews from other districts of Warsaw, including Praga and from smaller towns around Warsaw like Pruszków, Otowck, Wołomin ect too (1940-1941).

There were no any specific Jew's distric (big getto) in Warsaw before 1.09.1939, there were no marked boudarises of it too. Of course Warsaw was a one, big city for Polish Jews before 1.09.39.

Of course German after seizure of Warsaw had opened such getto (das große jüdische Viertel), but it was German extermination policy and law agains Poles and Jews. Later in 1942/43 German deliberatlby anhilated almost all Warsaw Jews in Treblinka extermination camp or other extermination camps. This is other story


Regards
mw
Hi mw,

I must respectfully disagree. A German map dated 1915, during the German occupation (1915–1918) clearly identifying the area of Warsaw known as the Jewish Quarter it is annotated "Juden-Viertel" or in English "Jewish-quarter". It couldn't be clearer that the Jewish Quarter, as a defined area, in Warsaw existed in 1915... and in 1939 identified as a bombing target on 13 September 1939.
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This area of Warsaw was also known by Varsovians as the "Jewish Quarter" my family from the WWII wartime generation of Warsaw always described it as such. It is true there were no designated areas of Warsaw that Jews were required to live in, they could settle and own property anywhere in Warsaw, until the German occupation and the establishment of the Jewish Residential District more commonly known as the Warsaw Ghetto.

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wm
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#96

Post by wm » 23 Dec 2015, 20:12

These German cartographers weren't very generous, they allocated to a quarter of a million Jews just a couple of short streets.
But assuming Franciszkańska is the center, this is the street in 1940-42. There is destruction but it doesn't look the place was attacked with several thousand of incendiary bombs and was in flames for days:
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4thskorpion
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#97

Post by 4thskorpion » 24 Dec 2015, 11:44

wm, your assumptions are your own.

However the important point is there was an established area of Warsaw that both Varsovians and the Germans recognised to be the "Jewish Quarter"' before WWII and the establishment of the Warsaw Ghetto, and this "Jewish Quarter" which extended to more than your misinterpretation of two streets was recognised on German maps. My old Polish maps of Warsaw are in storage so I cannot reference those. Since such an area was on German maps it could be targeted as the Jewish area of the city by German bombers 24 years later than the map I posted was drawn up.

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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#98

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 24 Dec 2015, 12:06

Important would be to see any primary sources backing this claim....

Jan-Hendrik

Michael Kenny
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#99

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Dec 2015, 12:19

wm wrote: But assuming Franciszkańska is the center, this is the street in 1940-42. There is destruction but it doesn't look the place was attacked with several thousand of incendiary bombs and was in flames for days:
3 of those photos are of the same block of buildings.

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4thskorpion
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#100

Post by 4thskorpion » 24 Dec 2015, 12:20

A German map of Warsaw 1883, note annotation "Juden"
image.png

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wm
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#101

Post by wm » 24 Dec 2015, 12:28

The area shown was populated by Jews (up to 90%) but as the pictures show it wasn't firebombed. Here are all the known pictures of this relatively short street. The place didn't look like Hamburg or Coventry.

The Jews of Warsaw in the thirties, most of them actually lived among the Poles:
juden of Warsaw.jpg
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from: The Warsaw Ghetto: A Guide to the Perished City, 2nd edition.

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4thskorpion
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#102

Post by 4thskorpion » 24 Dec 2015, 12:44

Dzielnica Północna w Warszawie

From "Two Septembers" see earlier posts in this thread for more references by Kaplan and others to German bombing of the "Jewish Quarter" of Warsaw.
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#103

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 24 Dec 2015, 12:58

I am looking for primary sources....f.e. Einsatzbefehle, KTB entries etc....

Jan-Hendrik

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wm
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#104

Post by wm » 24 Dec 2015, 13:16

"The problem is the Great Synagogue in Warsaw, one of the largest building in Warsaw, wasn't destroyed or even damaged in 1939. It is surprising because it was an obvious target for terror bombing.

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4thskorpion
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Re: Luftwaffe Bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam

#105

Post by 4thskorpion » 24 Dec 2015, 13:17

Someone may have access to this book to look at the primary sources used:

Luftwaffe, Judenvernichtung, totaler Krieg
Guernica, Łomża, Warschau, Coventry ... Deutsche Geschichtspolitik, Traditionspflege in der Garnisonsstadt Wunstorf, "Vergessene" Geschichte in Hannover-Langenhagen
Arbeitskreis Regionalgesch. (2010), Deutsch, KartoniertmISBN 9783930726158

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