Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
Post Reply
Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#1

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jul 2015, 11:49

In 1939 the airline Lufthansa had four catapult ships designed to assist large Dornier Do 18 flying boats in Atlantic crossings: Ostmark, Westfalen, Friesenland and Schwabenland.

Ostmark was soon sunk, but the other three were taken over by the Luftwaffe.

Were any special operations by them ever considered?

For example, assuming they could breach the British blockade of Western Europe, they appear to have had the potential to mount nuisance air raids on the east coast of the Americas.

Many thanks,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jul 2015, 21:01

I see there were more wartime-built flying boat carriers produced, as this old thread illustrates:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=98112

and

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2&start=15

Were there any offensive pan, however unlikely or suicidal, mooted for any of them?

Cheers,

Sid


thaddeus_c
Member
Posts: 816
Joined: 22 Jan 2014, 04:16

Re: Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#3

Post by thaddeus_c » 02 Jul 2015, 19:26

had the impression from the (little) material that they were taken over by LW to prevent their use by KM(?) and/or to support operations of HE-115 torpedo bomber, but it was quickly relegated to Murmansk convoy route and catapult ships not particularly needed?

maybe a case of which comes first chicken or egg?

if Germany had built more of the (record breaking) fast HE-119 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_119 and seaplane variant, then support ships needed

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 784
Joined: 23 Mar 2004, 01:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#4

Post by Simon Gunson » 21 Sep 2015, 16:02

Breach of the blockade by flights to South America were achieved by various regular airline services.

Image

LATI flew five Italian Fiat G.12RT tri-motors to Brazil until December 1941.

https://transatlanticmailbyair.wordpres ... gory/lati/

Image

Also two FW200 were flown by an Iberia airline to Argentina. On 1st of January 1943, FW-200C-4, (originally NT+BR) F8+HS, werknr. 0118 landed at the airfield Tablada near Sevilla in Spain. The aircraft belonged to I./KG 40 and was taken over by the Spanish government as T.4-1). It was used by the Iberia airline, for some reason T.4-1 wasn't used very long. Parts where used to keep T.4-2 flying.

Image

On the 15th of October 1943 FW-200C-4 F8+HR, werknr. 0166 from 7./KG 40 made an emergency landing at Santiago de Compostella in Spain. It had received heavy damage from triple-A while attacking a convoy. According to British sources it was repaired and used by Iberia airline. However this is unconfirmed.

Image
Image

There was also Syndicato Condor a largely German owned airline in Argentina also flying two FW200.

In all cases these flights operated via Villa Czneros

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#5

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Sep 2015, 19:25

Simon Gunson wrote:Also two FW200 were flown by an Iberia airline to Argentina. On 1st of January 1943, FW-200C-4, (originally NT+BR) F8+HS, werknr. 0118 landed at the airfield Tablada near Sevilla in Spain. The aircraft belonged to I./KG 40 and was taken over by the Spanish government as T.4-1). It was used by the Iberia airline, for some reason T.4-1 wasn't used very long. Parts where used to keep T.4-2 flying.
On the 15th of October 1943 FW-200C-4 F8+HR, werknr. 0166 from 7./KG 40 made an emergency landing at Santiago de Compostella in Spain. It had received heavy damage from triple-A while attacking a convoy. According to British sources it was repaired and used by Iberia airline. However this is unconfirmed.
No "Spanish" Fw200 was flown to Argentina (neither to any other place) during World War II. Only a single Fw200 (F8+AS, Wnr 0175) was assigned to Iberia, and that was on 12 January 1945, but as the conversion to civil configuration was considered uneconomical it was never flown by the company and was given to the Spanish Air Force, so in fact no Fw200 was never flown by Iberia. And only one was flown by the Spanish Air Force, and that was after WWII.

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 784
Joined: 23 Mar 2004, 01:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#6

Post by Simon Gunson » 22 Sep 2015, 04:15

Ironmachine wrote: No "Spanish" Fw200 was flown to Argentina (neither to any other place) during World War II. Only a single Fw200 (F8+AS, Wnr 0175) was assigned to Iberia, and that was on 12 January 1945, but as the conversion to civil configuration was considered uneconomical it was never flown by the company and was given to the Spanish Air Force, so in fact no Fw200 was never flown by Iberia. And only one was flown by the Spanish Air Force, and that was after WWII.
It is hardly something which Spain was inclined to advertise during war, however the source: Green, William. War Planes of the Second World War: Volume 9 Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft. London: Macdonald, 1967, claims Allied intelligence as his source. Green was the editor of RAF Review after the war and enjoyed informal access to information which was not generally available. A letter written by General Faupel also refers to these Condor flights to South America.

This document held at NARA (CF-OP-2315, Naval Intelligence Box) "German Disembarkations at San Clemente del Tuyu" dated 18 April 1945 mentions use of two FW 200 aircraft. It reads: "22.5.1944. General Faupel acting for Martin Bormann in Argentina wrote referring to two reports, one from Leute (German financier) and General Pistarini (Argentine Chief of General Staff) suggested providing two FW 200 Condors since overland shipments Spain/Cadiz no longer possible." Faupel offered that two FW 200 Condors were available which could make the flight from Madrid to Buenos Aires with intermediate refueling stop in the Spanish Sahara.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#7

Post by Ironmachine » 22 Sep 2015, 07:15

I can't see why this would be something which Spain was especially inclined to hide during war, planes from a neutral country flying to other neutral countries is hardly a problem. And IMO it would be quite incongruous for the aircraft to be operated by a civilian airline if your intention is to keep the whole affair as a "secret".But anyway, since the end of the war no evidence (AFAIK) has appeared in Spanish archives, which is much more revealing than some reference to Allied intelligence in a 1967 book, hardly a proof of anything, much more so if the way of accessing that supposed information was "informal".
General Faupel's letter (and unless I'm missing something you are not quoting that letter but some Allied intelligence report about it) is not mentioning the "use of two FW 200 aircraft" (your claim); it's just a remark about the possibility of those flights, a very different thing that in no way proves that the flights were made. Also, when you write that "Faupel offered that two FW 200 Condors were available", he may have been talking about aircraft interned in Spain, and in that case they were not in flying conditions (and they were not Iberia's planes).
Also, you may want to review the information in your last paragraph because it has some dark points. First, AFAIK (though I may be wrong), in 1944 Pistarini was not the Argentine Chief of General Staff but the Minister of Public Works. Second, though obviously English is not my first language and I may be missing something, I can't understand the "overland shipments Spain/Cadiz no longer posible" reference. Overland shipments to Spain from where? Obviously not from Argentine!

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 784
Joined: 23 Mar 2004, 01:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#8

Post by Simon Gunson » 23 Sep 2015, 04:28

Ironmachine wrote:I can't see why this would be something which Spain was especially inclined to hide during war, planes from a neutral country flying to other neutral countries is hardly a problem. And IMO it would be quite incongruous for the aircraft to be operated by a civilian airline if your intention is to keep the whole affair as a "secret".
Surely you can't be serious?

Obviously if you aren't aware of Spain's wartime sensitivity over neutrality you really aren't very aware of WW2 history. Even for decades after the War it was outlawed in Spain to talk about wartime co-operation with the Axis powers.

When a Deutsch Luft Hansa Ju-290 with a swastika on the tail ran off the runway at Barcelona the night of 5/6 April 1945 there were huge protests from London & Washington with a threat of invasion. Franco had to publicly outlaw all flights from Germany yet there were still three more Ju-290 flights made in utter secrecy after that.

But anyway, since the end of the war no evidence (AFAIK) has appeared in Spanish archives, which is much more revealing than some reference to Allied intelligence in a 1967 book, hardly a proof of anything, much more so if the way of accessing that supposed information was "informal".
Until Allied intelligence archives became publicly available from 1980, virtually the only access to it was through informal contacts. Your comments are based in ignorance of the difficulty of obtaining any historical sources before 1980.

Clearly it escapes your notice that Spain was a fascist dictatorship until the 1980s and just as happened in Argentina all information about wartime co-operation with the axis powers were hidden & suppressed. Are you trying to impress me with your knowledge "AFIK" being the operative phrase here?
General Faupel's letter (and unless I'm missing something you are not quoting that letter but some Allied intelligence report about it) is not mentioning the "use of two FW 200 aircraft" (your claim); it's just a remark about the possibility of those flights, a very different thing that in no way proves that the flights were made. Also, when you write that "Faupel offered that two FW 200 Condors were available", he may have been talking about aircraft interned in Spain, and in that case they were not in flying conditions (and they were not Iberia's planes).
Two planes concerned were flown by Iberia according to wartime intelligence. Spain maintained the fiction they were not airworthy and you choose to accept Spain's wartime propaganda spin.

Faupel was a general in the Seicherheitdienst responsible for espionage activities in South America.

If a General in the SD were talking about the availability of FW200 aircraft in Spain he clearly was not talking about Luftwaffe units based in Spain was he?

Implicit is that Germany had "available" to it for operations to south America of two Fw200 aircraft. Available does not mean dismantled for parts or unservicible. it means available in flying condition for operations to south America.
Also, you may want to review the information in your last paragraph because it has some dark points. First, AFAIK (though I may be wrong), in 1944 Pistarini was not the Argentine Chief of General Staff but the Minister of Public Works. Second, though obviously English is not my first language and I may be missing something, I can't understand the "overland shipments Spain/Cadiz no longer posible" reference. Overland shipments to Spain from where? Obviously not from Argentine!
I thoroughly accept your explanation that you do not understand.

Availability of overland routes to Spain has nothing to do with it. There is ample evidence of Fw200 & Ju290 aircraft ostensibly flown with civil registrations in the guise of Deutsch Luft Hansa flights to Barcelona until the very end of the war.

General Pistarini was appointed Chief of General Staff in the 1943 coup d'etat. Minister for Public Works was just one of his roles. Incidentally he used this role to employ crew members of the cruiser Graff Spee in building an airport at Cordoba used to accept long range flights from Europe.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Special operations for Lufthansa catapult ships Schwabenland, Friesenland, Westfalen and Ostmark during WWII?

#9

Post by Ironmachine » 23 Sep 2015, 10:32

Surely you can't be serious?
Obviously if you aren't aware of Spain's wartime sensitivity over neutrality you really aren't very aware of WW2 history. Even for decades after the War it was outlawed in Spain to talk about wartime co-operation with the Axis powers.
Yes, I'm very serious. Obviously Spain's sensitivity over neutrality was a changing affair during the war, up to the point that Spain was not neutral but non-belligerant for a long part of it. And no, talking about wartime co-operation with the Axis powers after the war was not outlawed (I'm sure you can't show me which law that was, can you?), even if it was not encouraged.
In any case, Argentine and Spain were making commercial interchanges by ship during the war, and this was well known. Whether adding a plane or two was going to make much of a difference in the Allied view is open to open to discussion, but in any case if secrecy was the upmost consideration then involving Iberia, a civilian airline, would have been a stupid movement.
Until Allied intelligence archives became publicly available from 1980, virtually the only access to it was through informal contacts. Your comments are based in ignorance of the difficulty of obtaining any historical sources before 1980.
I'm quite aware of the difficulty of obtaining sources before 1980. My comments are just based on the impossibility of verifying Green's sources. Did he actually see a document? Was he given just an oral reference?
Clearly it escapes your notice that Spain was a fascist dictatorship until the 1980s and just as happened in Argentina all information about wartime co-operation with the axis powers were hidden & suppressed.
I'm well aware that Spain was a dictatorship (though it was not strictly fascist and to be precise it ended by the end of 1978). But as I said earlier, we are now more than 35 years later and nothing about Iberia's Fw 200 flights to Argentine in World War II has emerged from the archives.
Are you trying to impress me with your knowledge "AFIK" being the operative phrase here?
Believe me, I'm not trying to impress anyone here. I actually have a good life in the real world and I don't need the forum to make up for any emotional deprivation. That AFAIK that seems to piss you off so much is just my way to indicate that there may be some published source I do not know of (and of course, there is always the possibility of some document still unrevealed in an archive). I'm well aware that I do not know everything and that I am not the ultimate source of knowledge; it seems you don't have such limitations.
Two planes concerned were flown by Iberia according to wartime intelligence. Spain maintained the fiction they were not airworthy and you choose to accept Spain's wartime propaganda spin.
And you choose to believe that Spanish reports are propaganda and that Allied wartime intelligence is 100% accurate (even though in your first post in this thread you even posted that "However this is unconfirmed"). By the way, it's not only in Spain, it seems that also in Argentina and Germany nothing can be found about those Iberia's flights. Not even pilots or ground crew members of those supposed flights talking about them. And as Spanish documents acknowleged that one Fw200 was given to Iberia, why not admit that they were two, not one, if that was the case? It would made no difference.
Even more important, I fail to see that Allied wartime intelligence that you talk about. You have only provided a second-hand reference to it. Can you please post the original source, or at least a quote of the original source?
Faupel was a general in the Seicherheitdienst responsible for espionage activities in South America.
If a General in the SD were talking about the availability of FW200 aircraft in Spain he clearly was not talking about Luftwaffe units based in Spain was he?
Implicit is that Germany had "available" to it for operations to south America of two Fw200 aircraft. Available does not mean dismantled for parts or unservicible. it means available in flying condition for operations to south America.
What Faupel knew or didn't know about the availabilty of FW200 aircraft (and by the way, in you quote there is no mention that the FW200 were in Spain, that's something you have made up now), or whether they were already operational is not in any way evident from your source. In fact, the part about "that two FW 200 Condors were available which could make the flight from Madrid to Buenos Aires with intermediate refueling stop in the Spanish Sahara" is not included in the quote from NARA's CF-OP-2315, Naval Intelligence Box, so either you made that part up or you are not quoting the relevant part. In the first case, the statement has no value at all; in the second case, you should provide the exact quote so everyone can make its own assumption.
I thoroughly accept your explanation that you do not understand.
Yes, given how badly you explain yourself, it is really no wonder that I can't understand your arguments, is it?
Availability of overland routes to Spain has nothing to do with it.
In fact, availability of overland routes to Spain has everything to do with it. If Faupel is talking about overland shipments (from/to?) Spain/Cádiz he can't be talking about shipments between Spain and Argentine. Maybe he is talking about FW200 flights from Germany to Spain, and then shipments by sea from Spain to Argentina. However as the date in the NARA's document is 22.5.1944 the part about the lack of overland routes to Spain has no sense at all. So much for Allied wartime intelligence!
General Pistarini was appointed Chief of General Staff in the 1943 coup d'etat. Minister for Public Works was just one of his roles. Incidentally he used this role to employ crew members of the cruiser Graff Spee in building an airport at Cordoba used to accept long range flights from Europe.
Well, I can be wrong (that's why I wrote that AFAIK that seems to trouble you so much) and it's not really that important, but for example in Who's Who in Latin America: Part V, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay by Ronald Hilton Pistarini is shown as "pres., council of war for chiefs and officers of army and navy, 1904-43; comdt. gen. of the interior, 1943; nat. minister of pub. works, since 1943; acting minister of navy, 1944, of agr., 1944, of interior, 1945; Vice-Pres. of Argentina, 1945-46..." So can you please offer a source for him being Chief of General Staff in 1944?
Incidentally, if you are talking about the Aeropuerto International de Ezeiza/Aeropuerto Internacional Ministro Pistarini, IIRC it was begun in December 1945 and inaugurated in 1949.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So when we remove all the fancy words, what's left?
Well, we have some references by Allied wartime intelligence about supposed flights by two Iberia's FW 200 from Spain to Argentine. However, in fact the only such reference that has been actually quoted in this thread makes no mention of such flights actually having been made, neither of any Iberia involvement with the supossed operation. No reference can be found in Spanish archived to those flights, and in fact relevant data found in Spanish sources directly contradicts the Allied wartime intelligence reports. It seems that no confirmation of the Allied intelligence reports can be found either in Argentine and Germany. So unless you can provide something "heavier" in the proof department, there is nothing more to see here.

Post Reply

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”