Was Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring an Idiot?

[Roberto]

Now, Roberto, my churlish friend, I'm not wrong. And I think you know it but you're bluffing. And if I had taken Ovi's side on this one and said the opposite, you would still be demanding proof, I am sure. Obviously you don't know what you are talking about.

In a poker game if you want to call you have to bet. So what's it worth to you to be enlightened in this silly and seemingly unimportant matter that you are making such a fuss over?

The issue is showing how Reverend Smith makes lightheaded assertions such as

The Nazis called themselves Nazis. I don't really see how it is derogatory.

with all the conviction in the world, as if he had eaten wisdom in spoonfuls, and then wriggles, squirms and bullshits about when asked for something as elementary as backup for his statement.

And he’s cooperating wonderfully.

Once again, Reverend: Cut out the crap and let’s have a quote or an admission that you didn’t know what you were talking about.

[Spearhead]

What debate, Roberto? If it is your assertion that the Nazis did find the informal term "Nazi" derogatory, then perhaps you can show me that this is so. I mean, you know so much about the Nazis and all. Don't hold back. Perhaps some rhetoric from Hitler or Goebbels would suffice....

Now, if I do supply a citation for you, what is in it for me?

What's in for me? I have no quote but I'm a German and I can positively confirm that the term "Nazi" was a derogatory phrase used only by non-Nazis. On some occasions, it could even bring you in trouble with the Gestapo if you publicly referred to the National Socialists as the Nazis. Nevertheless, the word was of course commonly used by anyone but the Nazis themselves.

[Scott Smith]

What debate, Roberto? If it is your assertion that the Nazis did find the informal term "Nazi" derogatory, then perhaps you can show me that this is so. I mean, you know so much about the Nazis and all. Don't hold back. Perhaps some rhetoric from Hitler or Goebbels would suffice....

Now, if I do supply a citation for you, what is in it for me?

What's in for me? I have no quote but I'm a German and I can positively confirm that the term "Nazi" was a derogatory phrase used only by non-Nazis. On some occasions, it could even bring you in trouble with the Gestapo if you publicly referred to the National Socialists as the Nazis. Nevertheless, the word was of course commonly used by anyone but the Nazis themselves.

I recall Goebbels himself using it in his Diaries but I haven't been to a library yet to confirm or get a citation.

Nevertheless, if I had made the opposite point I would be asked to provide a meaningless citation for my churlish and incredulous friend. Even when I agree with him he must take issue.

I still think it is hyperbole, so I appreciate the comment that "anyone" used the term colloquially without being arrested by the Gestapo. What is your generation, Spearhead, if I may ask?

[Roberto]

I recall Goebbels himself using it in his Diaries but I haven't been to a library yet to confirm or get a citation.

Please do that, Reverend. We are eagerly waiting for your citation.

Nevertheless, if I had made the opposite point I would be asked to provide a meaningless citation for my churlish and incredulous friend.

Citations are not meaningless, they are the backup to your statements that it is up to you to provide. Your churlish friend has seen a lot of unsubstantiated bunk produced by Reverend Smith, hence his incredulity.

A even when I agree with him he must take issue.

First of all, you did not agree with me. Second and most important, this is not about agreement or disagreement. It is about the principle that who produces an assertion should provide backup thereto when requested to do so, or admit that he didn't really know what he was talking about.

[Scott Smith]

First of all, you did not agree with me. Second and most important, this is not about agreement or disagreement. It is about the principle that who produces an assertion should provide backup thereto when requested to do so, or admit that he didn't really know what he was talking about.

First of all, of the two of us, I am the only one who has ever admitted that he could be and has been wrong.

Secondly, you still haven't explained how you can make it worth my while to go running off to the library to get something when Roberto doesn't like it. If I am able to produce a citation I will expect at the minimum a big apology.

Not that I mind being asked to substantiate things when the interest is genuine and not off-topic. What I don't like is obfuscation over silly things because Roberto doesn't like my opinion.

Since Herr Spearhead is willing to vouch that it was infra dig to use the term "Nazi," then I won't any longer ask you to backup YOUR assertion.

However, I would still like to know some details. The time period would likely be a factor: pre-1933, 1933-1939, 1939-1945, and post-1945. Of course, if Herr Spearhead is a postwar German then his opinion doesn't count for so much without foundation either.

Besides, my original statement (or assertion as you call it) was half a question, how the term Nazi was considered derogatory.

The Nazis called themselves Nazis. I don't really see how it is derogatory.

So what's it worth to you, Roberto? If nothing, then you can just Is-Too/Is-Not your way into getting another thread locked.
:roll:

[Roberto]

First of all, you did not agree with me. Second and most important, this is not about agreement or disagreement. It is about the principle that who produces an assertion should provide backup thereto when requested to do so, or admit that he didn't really know what he was talking about.

First of all, of the two of us, I am the only one who has ever admitted that he could be and has been wrong.

Is that so, Reverend? Why, you should do that more often, because you're wrong all the time.

Secondly, you still haven't explained how you can make it worth my while to go running off to the library to get something when Roberto doesn't like it. If I am able to produce a citation I will expect at the minimum a big apology.

If you produce a citation you'll have done nothing more than what is your duty: provide requested backup for a statement of yours.

Not that I mind being asked to substantiate things when the interest is genuine and not off-topic. What I don't like is obfuscation over silly things because Roberto doesn't like my opinion.

The principle of having to provide backup upon request applies regardless of whether or not the issue is on topic or relevant. And while the issue in question is of no importance to me, it seems to matter to true National Socialists like Ovidius, and the Reverend's response suggests that it is not indifferent to him either.

Since Herr Spearhead is willing to vouch that it was infra dig to use the term "Nazi," then I won't any longer ask you to backup YOUR assertion.

Which was MY assertion, Reverend? If I well remember, I merely suggested to Ovidius that he should take up his issue on the impropriety of the term "Nazis" used by Berg with the "Hoaxbuster" himself.

However, I would still like to know some details. The time period would likely be a factor: pre-1933, 1933-1939, 1939-1945, and post-1945. Of course, if Herr Spearhead is a postwar German then his opinion doesn't count for so much without foundation either.

Well, my conclusion from reading your statement is that you were talking about the 1933-1945 period and official usage of terms by the Nazi regime.

Besides, my original statement (or assertion as you call it) was half a question, how the term Nazi was considered derogatory.

The Nazis called themselves Nazis. I don't really see how it is derogatory.

Very lame, Reverend. The first sentence contains an assertion, doesn't it?

So what's it worth to you, Roberto? If nothing, then you can just Is-Too/Is-Not your way into getting another thread locked.
:roll:

It's worth a demonstration that the Reverend once again made a statement he is at pains to back up upon request, if he can manage to do so at all.

So better shut up and go to the library, Reverend. Bullshit won't get you off the hook, only a quote will. And I'm being generous: One quote from a high-ranking Nazi official will do.

[Y Ddraig Goch]

I voted a for cross between a high grade prostitute and an automobile driver as it was the only extremely negative option.

I reality he was a pompous, drugged up, idiotic, fat twit!

He lost the air war for Germany among many other reasons.

[Scott Smith]

So better shut up and go to the library, Reverend. Bullshit won't get you off the hook, only a quote will. And I'm being generous: One quote from a high-ranking Nazi official will do.

“Strasser’s great apparatus in the Party has been dissolved, its ballast thrown overboard, and the movement is again equipped for the struggle. In the palace of the President of the Reichstag the District Leaders and Inspectors, together with the deputies, are assembled. The Leader first addresses the District Leaders on such a self-confident and strong personal note, it goes straight to the heart. He strongly arraigns Strasser and the sabotage he has worked in the Party. Old Nazis, who have fought for years in the Party, have tears in their eyes, tears of anger, pain and shame. The evening is a great success for the unity of the movement. At the end, the District Leaders and deputies present burst into spontaneous ovations for the Leader. All shake hands with him, promising to carry on until the very end and not to renounce the great Idea, come what might.” (Emphasis added.)

Clearly Dr. Goebbels speaks affectionately for “Old NAZIS.”

I’m ready for my apology, anytime.

[Roberto]

So better shut up and go to the library, Reverend. Bullshit won't get you off the hook, only a quote will. And I'm being generous: One quote from a high-ranking Nazi official will do.

“Strasser’s great apparatus in the Party has been dissolved, its ballast thrown overboard, and the movement is again equipped for the struggle. In the palace of the President of the Reichstag the District Leaders and Inspectors, together with the deputies, are assembled. The Leader first addresses the District Leaders on such a self-confident and strong personal note, it goes straight to the heart. He strongly arraigns Strasser and the sabotage he has worked in the Party. Old Nazis, who have fought for years in the Party, have tears in their eyes, tears of anger, pain and shame. The evening is a great success for the unity of the movement. At the end, the District Leaders and deputies present burst into spontaneous ovations for the Leader. All shake hands with him, promising to carry on until the very end and not to renounce the great Idea, come what might.” (Emphasis added.)

Clearly Dr. Goebbels speaks affectionately for “Old NAZIS.”

I’m ready for my apology, anytime.

Let's see the original German text, wise guy. If it reads "Nazis" instead of "Nationalsozialisten", you will have made your point (leaving open the question why you had to be dragged kicking and screaming into providing a simple quote). An apology is out of the question, however, because you will have done nothing other than what is up to you to do.

[Scott Smith]

Let's see the original German text, wise guy. If it reads "Nazis" instead of "Nationalsozialisten", you will have made your point (leaving open the question why you had to be dragged kicking and screaming into providing a simple quote). An apology is out of the question, however, because you will have done nothing other than what is up to you to do.

No apology? Well, my mischievous merchant of canned pork products, I can see YOU ARE ALL-OUT OF ACES... Perhaps you wish to quit before I have "made my point," as you call it?

Here is more:

"Speak for the first time at the Press Conference. Outline a new and modern policy for the newspaper. Here, also, one has to make all things new. Many of those assembled here entrusted with the formation of public opinion, are thoroughly unfit to do so. I shall soon do away with them. [Wonder if he plans to build gaschambers? ]

"At noon the Leader tells us the latest news from Munich. The whole town is wakening as from a bad dream. The Leader has acclaimed with indescribable enthusiasm. Resistance is shown nowhere at all. Goering and Frick are there also. We discuss the law of authorization to be carried in the Reichstag. There is no question of plein pouvoir not being given us.

"The delimitation of my new province as against the already existing Ministries as yet causes some difficulties. But we Nazis quickly come to an understanding, as we solve these questions by common sense.

"Take part in the Cabinet council for the first time. Now work is assuming the proportions of mountains again. Where on earth do all the letters come from?" (Translation by Dr. Kurt Fiedler; emphasis mine.)

Hmmm, some convergence-of-evidence here! I guess the translator, Dr. Kurt Fiedler must have been part of some giant conspiracy to fool the monarch of metaled meat, huh Roberto?


And, encore:

The Nazis called themselves Nazis. I don't really see how it is derogatory.

[Roberto]

Let's see the original German text, wise guy. If it reads "Nazis" instead of "Nationalsozialisten", you will have made your point (leaving open the question why you had to be dragged kicking and screaming into providing a simple quote). An apology is out of the question, however, because you will have done nothing other than what is up to you to do.

No apology? Well, my mischievous merchant of canned pork products, I can see YOU ARE ALL-OUT OF ACES... Perhaps you wish to quit before I have "made my point," as you call it?

Here is more:

"Speak for the first time at the Press Conference. Outline a new and modern policy for the newspaper. Here, also, one has to make all things new. Many of those assembled here entrusted with the formation of public opinion, are thoroughly unfit to do so. I shall soon do away with them. [Wonder if he plans to build gaschambers? ]

"At noon the Leader tells us the latest news from Munich. The whole town is wakening as from a bad dream. The Leader has acclaimed with indescribable enthusiasm. Resistance is shown nowhere at all. Goering and Frick are there also. We discuss the law of authorization to be carried in the Reichstag. There is no question of plein pouvoir not being given us.

"The delimitation of my new province as against the already existing Ministries as yet causes some difficulties. But we Nazis quickly come to an understanding, as we solve these questions by common sense.

"Take part in the Cabinet council for the first time. Now work is assuming the proportions of mountains again. Where on earth do all the letters come from?" (Translation by Dr. Kurt Fiedler; emphasis mine.)

Hmmm, some convergence-of-evidence here! I guess the translator, Dr. Kurt Fiedler must have been part of some giant conspiracy to fool the monarch of metaled meat, huh Roberto?


And, encore:

The Nazis called themselves Nazis. I don't really see how it is derogatory.

Once again:

Let's see the original German text, wise guy. If it reads "Nazis" instead of "Nationalsozialisten", you will have made your point (leaving open the question why you had to be dragged kicking and screaming into providing a simple quote). An apology is out of the question, however, because you will have done nothing other than what is up to you to do.

Another thing: Keep the insults coming. They show that I haven't lost my talent for driving the poor Reverend mad with rage.

[Scott Smith]

Another thing: Keep the insults coming. They show that I haven't lost my talent for driving the poor Reverend mad with rage.

The pot calling the kettle black, I think.

Anyway, Roberto, your request for a German language version might be reasonable if you were really interested in the problem--which we both know is not true.

As it is, I still see no motivation to help you. I can probably get Goebbels' book in the original German via Inter-Library Loan, but why should I?

Shall I keep posting examples when we already know the answer, my prideful friend?
:roll:

"Glass reports from the Balkans. Things in Rumania are just as I described them. Antonescu without popular support. But the Foreign Ministry is supporting him. The SS and the SD are taking a tough stand against Ribbentrop for having supplied the Führer with incomplete information. Because personally he is no Nazi. He is a Jeremiah! But I intend to have another meeting with the Führer about this. The freemasons are forcing their way back into their old positions, and even the Jews are coming back. Poor Antonescu! Now he has officially destroyed the legionary character of the state. It is hard to say where things will lead if they continue in this unhappy direction. We only seem to support nationalists when they have no nations behind them. Like Mussert and Quisling. What a disaster!" (Translation by Fred Taylor; emphasis mine.)

[Roberto]

Another thing: Keep the insults coming. They show that I haven't lost my talent for driving the poor Reverend mad with rage.

The pot calling the kettle black, I think.

Anyway, Roberto, your request for a German language version might be reasonable if you were really interested in the problem--which we both know is not true.

As it is, I still see no motivation to help you. I can probably get Goebbels' book in the original German via Inter-Library Loan, but why should I?

Shall I keep posting examples when we already know the answer, my prideful friend?
:roll:

"Glass reports from the Balkans. Things in Rumania are just as I described them. Antonescu without popular support. But the Foreign Ministry is supporting him. The SS and the SD are taking a tough stand against Ribbentrop for having supplied the Führer with incomplete information. Because personally he is no Nazi. He is a Jeremiah! But I intend to have another meeting with the Führer about this. The freemasons are forcing their way back into their old positions, and even the Jews are coming back. Poor Antonescu! Now he has officially destroyed the legionary character of the state. It is hard to say where things will lead if they continue in this unhappy direction. We only seem to support nationalists when they have no nations behind them. Like Mussert and Quisling. What a disaster!" (Translation by Fred Taylor; emphasis mine.)

More hollow howling, but still no German language quote. It obviously hasn't occurred to the Reverend that the term "National Socialist(s)" might sound odd to Anglo-Saxon readers and that translators into English therefore may have seen it fit to render the term "Nationalsozialist(en)" used in the original text as "Nazi(s)". Which is why I insisted and keep insisting on a quote in German language.

The issue doesn't really interest me, as a matter of fact, but I like to see the Reverend wriggling and squirming and throwing bullshit around to cover up his inability or unwillingness to comply with a legitimate request that he provide backup for a statement of his.

As to what the Reverend will get in return for his efforts, the answer is simple: as soon as he has provided a German language quote that corroborates his assertion, I'll let him out of the cage. I promise.

[Scott Smith]

More hollow howling, but still no German language quote. It obviously hasn't occurred to the Reverend that the term "National Socialist(s)" might sound odd to Anglo-Saxon readers and that translators into English therefore may have seen it fit to render the term "Nationalsozialist(en)" used in the original text as "Nazi(s)". Which is why I insisted and keep insisting on a quote in German language.

Hi Rob,

Of course this has occured to me. We are asked to believe that Dr. Fiedler translated "National Socialist" in every instance except the two that I cited, where he slipped in good Freudian fashion and wrote "Nazi" for his master, Dr. Goebbels, twice.

Now, Taylor could have done just what you say, as he always uses the term Nazi. But, again, here Goebbels was writing later in his career and might not have bothered with the formal Nationalsozialist(en) in his diaries. So why not NS for shorthand, then? In any case, the term NAZI seems to have meant less opprobrium then our Spamkönig insists, eh?

The issue doesn't really interest me, as a matter of fact, but I like to see the Reverend wriggling and squirming and throwing bullshit around to cover up his inability or unwillingness to comply with a legitimate request that he provide backup for a statement of his.

Yes, I know the question doesn't interest you. That's why you are making such a fuss. Furious as hell that someone called your bluster and bluff. You are going to have to beg me to go out of my way to get a German citation at this point. I should think that the burden-of-proof is now upon you. Or, just admit your churlishness. Remember, you can get much more from me by asking nicely, as all I require is agreement-to-disagree and a willingness to think outside of the box and to learn, not dogmatism or "missionary work" as you call it.


Here's another gem:

"The situation in Bulgaria is reaching boiling-point. The wildest rumours. But all wide of the mark. The American Ambassador in Sofia stages a drunken incident in a bar. We succeed in minimising the damage.

"London is claiming that it knows nothing about abnormal shipping losses. We shall soon make them eat their words.

"Magda writes me a very loving letter from Dresden. She is sweet and good to me these days. And I can do with it.

"Work the entire afternoon. We are issuing an official announcement in the press, recalling troops on leave from Norway. A little stratagem to deceive the enemy.

"Some small demonstrations against us in Amsterdam and the Hague, plus a few strikes. Seyss is too hesitant in his reaction. The old story. He is no real Nazi!" (Translated by Fred Taylor; emphasis mine.)

[Roberto]

Blah, blah, blah. Remember the sequence, Reverend:

That despite all the gaschambers, mass graves, ovens, extermination camps and anti-partisan shooting sprees, despite the fact that a guy who considers them "good guys" use on them the insulting nickname Nazis, Hitler's men were still the good guys - or at least the "lesser evil" out of all possible alternatives.

As to Berg's having inappropriately called the fellows "Nazis", I suggest you have the Reverend give you his master's address so you may point out to Berg that the proper term is "National Socialists". You may also open a thread on the online Führerbunker to call attention to this touchy issue:

http://www.codoh.com/bbs/

The Nazis called themselves Nazis. I don't really see how it is derogatory.

Emphasis is mine.

Really? Let’s have a contemporary quote that goes like “wir Nazis …”

Whereupon the Reverend started shooting the bull.

Me furious, Reverend? The more furious you get because I won’t let you off the hook, the more I’m actually enjoying myself. And the burden of providing backup for a statement you made is clearly on you, however much you bitch around.