Luftwaffe lost

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
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WalterS
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Luftwaffe lost

#1

Post by WalterS » 17 Jul 2005, 23:17

[Split from "Most dramatic Luftwaffe moments in WW2"]


I hate to burst Panzermahn's bubble, but the Luftwaffe lost. It lost big time. It was a failure. While it provided valuable tactical assistance to German ground units, the Luftwaffe was a miserable failure in what should have been its primary mission, air supremacy over Europe. The Luftwaffe failed to achieve air supremacy over the Med and North Africa, failed to achieve air supremacy over Italy and failed to achieve air supremacy over Central Europe. These failures led to cataclysmic consequences for German ground forces.


The story of the Luftwaffe is one of total failure, despite Panzermahn's feeble attempts to instill glory and nobility. Did the Luftwaffe have its moments? Of course it did. It dominated the battlefields over Poland and France and Russia through 1942. Luftwaffe nachtjaegers exacted a fearful toll of RAF bombers, most notably in the Nuremberg raid of March, 1944. Nevertheless the Luftwaffe failed miserably in its primary mission to protect the German homeland and provide cover for German troops. The Luftwaffe could not prevent the Hamburg raids, nor forestall the D-Day landings, nor provide cover for troop movements in France in 1944.

For all its supposed heroism, handsome pilots, shiny aircraft, the Luftwaffe was a miserable failure.

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WalterS
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#2

Post by WalterS » 18 Jul 2005, 00:04

hmmmmmmmm back on topic
I was on topic. The most "dramatic" Luftwaffe moment was its total failure to achieve any long range strategic goals. The fact that on a given day the Luftwaffe achieved a modicum of tactical success is irrelevent, Erich's rantings notwithstanding. By the Summer of 44 the Luftwaffe had been rendered largely impotent. The Luftwaffe could not intervene in any significant way against the D Day landings nor could it protect German units on the ground engaged in such mis guided efforts as the Mortain counter-attack.

What Erich and Panzermahn are doing is seeking to pluck a few tactical successes from the record and then expand on them and make them somehow into grand triumphs.

The story of the Luftwaffe is the story of failure.


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Erich
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#3

Post by Erich » 18 Jul 2005, 00:10

get over it. I hear your talk about the Luftwaffesfailure several times a week on other forums Walter. It would be on topic if it was simply stated why did the Luftwaffe fail. Personally it appears the question was what is the high moments if any that the Luftwaffe had during the war. Tactical successe's killed many on both sides Walter you know this. I listed only a couple, two to be in fact during the day which tore the heart out of the US bomber formations that they had to revize their own aerial escort tactics, enough to jar the fighter/bomber formations. This is important enough, and true as you state the Luftwaffe never arose in anger to really deter the US nor the RAF nightly attacks over the Reich..........

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WalterS
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#4

Post by WalterS » 18 Jul 2005, 00:34

Erich wrote:get over it. I hear your talk about the Luftwaffesfailure several times a week on other forums Walter. It would be on topic if it was simply stated why did the Luftwaffe fail. Personally it appears the question was what is the high moments if any that the Luftwaffe had during the war. Tactical successe's killed many on both sides Walter you know this. I listed only a couple, two to be in fact during the day which tore the heart out of the US bomber formations that they had to revize their own aerial escort tactics, enough to jar the fighter/bomber formations. This is important enough, and true as you state the Luftwaffe never arose in anger to really deter the US nor the RAF nightly attacks over the Reich..........
blah blah..... you and Panzermahn are the ones who need to "get over it." The Luftwaffe failed. It failed miserably and all of your efforts to ennoble it are feeble and childish. The fact that the Luftwaffe inflicted losses upon the Allied air forces is not disputed. If that gives you comfort, so be it. The underlying reality is that the Luftwaffe was decisively defeated. Not just defeated, smashed. You can carp all you want to about brave Me 262 pilots in late 44 and early 45, but the fact is that the Luftwaffe was a non-player by then, the German military was a shambles by then, and those brave Luftwaffe pilots of whom you speak were little more than German kamikazes.

You also conveniently forget that the Luftwaffe was flying in defense of a reprehensible and criminal regime.

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Erich
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#5

Post by Erich » 18 Jul 2005, 00:43

ah here we go now about every pilot was a nazi "syndrome"

nuh said we have both made our points and the thread has been tainted

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WalterS
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#6

Post by WalterS » 18 Jul 2005, 01:15

Erich wrote:ah here we go now about every pilot was a nazi "syndrome"

nuh said we have both made our points and the thread has been tainted
I agree. Your pathetic efforts to glorify a military organization that failed miserably taints a lot.

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#7

Post by AdolfDettmer » 18 Jul 2005, 01:19

Well, what Walter said is true. The Luftwaffe was a dismal failure.

It did fly for a corrupt and evil regime.

But I do agree somewhat with Erich that the Luftwaffe did have its dramatic moments. But I agree more with Walter that the most dramatic moment was its ultimate failure to achieve its primary mission.

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#8

Post by Oberst_Emann » 18 Jul 2005, 08:52

Perhaps you should tell the Allied fighter and bomber pilots that died over the skies of Europe in late 1944 and 1945 that the Luftwaffe was a "non-player" at that time. So, where the USAF, RAF, and VVS pilots flying against invisible aircraft for 6 months or something?

Yes, the Luftwaffe was battered and depleted, but, the mission of any airforce, tactical or strategic, is to inflict casualties upon the opposing foce, which the Luftwaffe still did. I doubt the Allied powers would still mount aerial missions against an airforce that posed no threat to them. There were never "clear skies over Europe. Planes were still shot down, targets were still bombed, and unfortunately, people still died.

Well, theres my childish and feeble effort.

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WalterS
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#9

Post by WalterS » 18 Jul 2005, 09:11

I would certainly agree that your effort is "childish and feeble."

Nowhere have I argued that the Luftwaffe failed to inflict casualties. It certainly did, right up to the end of the war. My point has been, and continues to be, that the Luftwaffe was decisively defeated in the air in the Spring of 44 and, thus, was unable to seriously counter either the Allied landings in France or the Allied strategic bombing campaign. In short, the Luftwaffe was a failure.

Not only was the Luftwaffe a failure in 1944, it was a failure as early as 1940.
The Air Force had not achieved the air supremacy over the invasion area that the Navy considered a prerequisite for invasion. Instead of continuing to center his attention on preparation for the Channel crossing and landings, Göring was diverting his air forces more and more to an attack on London.

By the middle of September [1940] - the date presumably set for the invasion- the Naval War Staff recognized that the Air Force was making practically no effort against the units of the British Fleet that were operating in the Channel area, but was carrying on its own concept of total war quite apart from the plans for Sea Lion. Furthermore, Göring not only had failed in his task of making the Channel safe for landing operations, but, with the heavy losses he was taking in the Battle of London, would not have the strength thereafter to do any better. Unquestionably, in the Navy's view, any possibility of successfully crossing the Channel had vanished.
Grand Admiral Erich Raeder, "Grand Admiral," p.329

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Marcus
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#10

Post by Marcus » 18 Jul 2005, 09:24

An off-topic post from Kurt_Steiner was removed.

/Marcus

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Marcus
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#11

Post by Marcus » 18 Jul 2005, 09:24

Everyone, let's keep this a friendly and mature discussion.

/Marcus

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#12

Post by Panzermahn » 18 Jul 2005, 12:17

The majority, if not most of the Luftwaffe officers and men are soldiers of Germany and they fought WW2 for their fatherland.

In fact, it was the Allies who benefited from its battles against Luftwaffe superior technology and tactics. Didn't they Allies themselves took most of the Luftwaffe aircrafts for evaluation and technology plagiarism?

Luftwaffe lost in WW2 because that there are no clear strategic aims as well as the lack of military-economic cooperation and internal squabbling between the political and military factions of the Luftwaffe and the German High Command.

Otherwise the achievements of the Luftwaffe could never and shall never be surpassed in the annals of military history.

For example, the highest scoring fighter pilot was Major Erich Hartmann with 352 confirmed kills while the highest score achieved by an Allied fighter pilot was only a mere 62 (Red Air Force, General Ivan Kordezub).

Luftwaffe remains the only air force in the world until today to have shot down more than 50 American heavy bombers in the entire WW2 and that was mostly with aircraft gun and cannon (meaning bullets) compare to amount of American bombers lost in Korean War, Vietnam War at a time where there are more advanced missile defences

Luftwaffe was the first air force to utilised operational jet-fighters

Luftwaffe still remains until today the only air force in the world to have night fighter aces who had more than 100 kills which rely mostly on eyeseight initially before the availability of radar at the last stages of the war.

Luftwaffe still remains until today the only air force to have a bomber as well as tank-destroying ace that have sunk a battleship (Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel, Russian Battleship Marat was sunk by his Stuka)

So much for the "failure" of Luftwaffe

Panzermahn

Michael Kenny
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#13

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Jul 2005, 12:41

Why were they so inept at defending their cities even early in the war?

Panzermahn
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#14

Post by Panzermahn » 18 Jul 2005, 13:02

Michael Kenny wrote:Why were they so inept at defending their cities even early in the war?
They are not inept at defending their cities early in the war but Luftwaffe overextended itself in accordance to wishes of the Fuehrer.

I say it again,

Luftwaffe lost in WW2 because that there are no clear strategic aims as well as the lack of military-economic cooperation and internal squabbling between the political and military factions of the Luftwaffe and the German High Command.

Despite the Luftwaffe had lost, its officers and men fought to the very end for their Fatherland with utmost bravery and valor which gained even admiration from their foes.
Last edited by Panzermahn on 18 Jul 2005, 13:04, edited 1 time in total.

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#15

Post by varjag » 18 Jul 2005, 14:01

Marcus Wendel wrote:Everyone, let's keep this a friendly and mature discussion.

/Marcus
Indeed! Of course the Luftwaffe was a failure. Germany - and it - lost the war! But in any sober and detached study the Luftwaffe really was a cat with nine lives. It certainly showed an ability for 'come-backs' - that I challenge any other airforce to match. Fighting on one, then two, later three fronts - it was knocked down - but never out, until the very last months of 5½ years war, surely something that any future airforce can only hope to do...my tuppence, Varjag

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