The Detailed Information of Erich Hartmann

[Stuka Pilot]

We know that the first ace of the Luftwaffe is Erich Hartmann who gained 352 victories.
And i eagerly want to know his detailed fighting inforamtion including type of the the planes shot down,date ,fighting place and so on.
So would anyone help me to find that?
Thanx a lot!
(PS:Merry Xmas!)

[Avis 1]

Hallo Stuka Pilot

As is usually the case, also Erich Hartmann has become a controversy after his death.
Mostly it looks like he is tried to become shot down a final time by some Russian historians....

However with regard to Hartmanns victories, only his first 150 are documented so far since his SECOND Flugbuch was lost at the end of the war and has, as far as I know, NOT resurfaced.

But not even those who have (statedly) read his FIRST Flugbuch agree with what it says.
A listing in Avion issue 100 a couple of years ago was immediately rebuked by a German citizen claiming that Hartmann's victims during certain days was not at all what Avion had published, but was indeed what HE listed. I believe that Avion's list can mostly be traced back to Toliver/Constable's book about Hartmann. Both these Gentlemen has ALSO taken some Flak for not being entirely correct in their historical approach, so what Hartmann's FB REALLY list is unknown by me!

I have never seen Hartmann's FB and probably never will, so I cannot comment on such detailed statements, but if I were you I would wait for Bernd Barbas to publish his two remaining books about JG 52, the second one about I./JG 52 hopefully being just around the corner. Of course when it comes to Hartmann it is the third Gruppe that is most interesting so I guess we all have to wait possibly another year before we will find out what Mr Barbas has found out....

Cheers
Stig

[Ron Klages]

Stuka Pilot,

Try this site


http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html

Best regards,
Ron Klages

[Stuka Pilot]

Stuka Pilot,

Try this site


http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html

Best regards,
Ron Klages

Ron Klages,thank you very much!
8)

[Gerhard Barkhorn]

Try better here: (still under construction) http://es.geocities.com/bf_109_hartmann/datosutiles.htm

Regards

[Patras]

Hartmann never shot down 352 aircrafts... maximum 80, like Red Baron.. But still with 80 victories he is the best german ace in the SWW and the best hunter in Russian Front.

Regards

[Christian W.]

Hartmann never shot down 352 aircrafts.

How about showing some proves to support this claim?

[Acolyte]

Hartmann never shot down 352 aircrafts... maximum 80, like Red Baron.. But still with 80 victories he is the best german ace in the SWW and the best hunter in Russian Front.

Regards

I find it funny that the victory claims of Luftwaffe aces have always been relentlessly questioned, denied in the past decades, whereas I cannot name a single historian, or even columnist, who ever questioned the victory claims of any WW2 Allied fighting ace. Apparently the Allied systems of kill claim verification worked perfectly throughout the war, whereas that of the LW was porked from the start .

[Andreas1984]

Hartmann never shot down 352 aircrafts... maximum 80, like Red Baron.. But still with 80 victories he is the best german ace in the SWW and the best hunter in Russian Front.

Regards

Are you crazy? You should start informing abfore you post things which are wrong.
Best regards,

Andreas

[Huck]

There's nothing surprising about the high scores of the German fighter pilots, they just flew much more than the Allied ones.
What is indeed surprising is that they survived the war despite flying so many missions. Some of them even lost 20 planes. This tells something about their fighting spirit.

[Patras]

Mr Krisztian wrote:

How about showing some proves to support this claim?

It´d be better to ask How about did HARTMANN show any proves to support HIS claims?

I think Hartmann was the best ace in SWW but he shot down about 80 airplanes, never 355.

1.- When have been compared lost allies with the German claims, great differences have been found. This has been verified so in Western front (Battle of Britain, Africa), as in Russian Front (Moscow, Kurks).

2.- The statistics of munition throw some low numbers, and although can´t be told that they are 100% reliable they give a global idea.

3.- The German claims are not documented in a "rigorous way", for example the Hartmann´s Diary is not exactly what I understand like "serious way"

4.- Some data of their claims, like the type of avion, place of action, hour etc etc offer lot of doubts.

It´s very funny: Nor 1914-1918 nor early phases in the SWW there were great differences between the aces from the countries in war by the front:

Mannock, Fonck, Richthoffen had more or less the same number of victories: 80, 75, 73, maybe 60, more or less the same... If you look the Alps front is the same. Baracca or Brumowski had more or less the same: 40, 35, 34 etc etc etc... However in SWW the difference are incredible: And WHEN did the great german aces appear in Russian Front? in the last period of war: 1943-1945 when german LOST all the battles, when they lost all the territory, the land, when they are always in an endless retreat... when "their kills" can´t be confirmed because "always" shot down in the enemy lines...Very funny but Hartmann went the scene in just the "right momment":

a) When german lost all the battles and they need a "superheroe" for giving moral to the troops:
b) When he claims kills nor he nor any german can confirmed because they are behind russian lines...

Very "funny" he "only" became in a "superheroe" after german are defeated in details in the dissastrous Zitadelle... "funny" really...

Mr Andreas Wrote:

You should start informing abfore you post things which are wrong.

Because I am "informed" I can write after... have you compared Hartmann´ claims with Russian official records?

Thanks and regards

Hartmann was a great ACE, the best hunter in SWW, what I don´t believe it´s in 352 victories (propaganda, tale, heroe of movie).. Hartamm shot about 80/100 kills (real heroe)... I prefer the HARD TRUE than a Piadous Tale.. For me it´s better a real 80 kills ace than a fantastic and propaganda 355 aces ready for movie...

Mr Acolyte wrote

Apparently the Allied systems of kill claim verification worked perfectly throughout the war, whereas that of the LW was porked from the start

Nor west allied nor Russian systems of kill were perfect but they were "less wrong" than the german one.

Regards

[dabbydo]

Patras, it seems to me that you don't WANT tobelieve Hartmann's record for some reason. How do you come up with 80-100 kills? Where is your documentation?
If I remember correctly, in his biography "The Blonde Knight of Germany" it says the pilots on the eastern front had to shoot down more planes than on the western front to earn a knights cross, something like 100 more planes because of the vast number of inexperienced Soviet pilots and obsolete aircraft which initially made the Soviets much "easier" kills.

At any rate, his record has stood the test of time and a lot of professional research,
Erich Hartmann is the best fighter ace in the world, 352 kills and all.

Best,

David

[Patras]

Hi Mr Dabbydo:

for some reason

The only reason is the love of true, I don´t like the "publicity"..

because of the vast number of inexperienced Soviet pilots and obsolete aircraft which initially made the Soviets much "easier" kills

You´re all right and like you say: INITIALLY... yes, initially russian pilots lack of experience, wrong tactic and obsolete aircraft, but "the experten" obtained the most of their "kills" after 1943, not INITIALLY, like you say and I think, It would be the "logic"... not, The "experten" became "experten" when german lost the battles and begun the endless retreat till Berlin, Praha, Wien... "funny" don´t you think so?

has stood the test of time and a lot of professional research,

No, still NOBODY had read the russian oficcial records in Moscow and to comparate with Lutwaffe Official records and "personal diaries"... Not even We know what kind of aircraft Hartmann shot down? Do You know it?

"According with the Hartmann´s version" : 109 La-5, 77 P-39, 51 Yak-9, 28 Il-2, 27 La-7, 11 Pe-2, 8 Yak-7, 7 LaGG-3, 6 P-51, 5 Yak-3, 2 B-20, 1 B-25, 1 Mig-1, 1 I-16, 1 R-5, 1 U-2 = 336, the other 19 are "unidentified"...

Erich Hartmann is the best fighter ace in the world, 352 kills and all

Accoding to Goebbels and Hartmann yes, according to OFFICIAL RECORDS from Lutwaffe and VVS, of course NOT.

Regards

[dabbydo]

I'll say it again, you have disputed the claims of his aerial victories. Your opinion is that he did not shoot down 352 aircraft, fine, then prove your opinion to be true with the facts. The truth and the facts are well documented. If you can prove he did not shoot down 352 aircraft, then let me be the first to say I'll pay a lot of money for your book.

His record is well documented, where are your facts that prove he did not shoot down these aircraft? If you can prove it, I'll buy it.

Best,

David

[Patras]

Hi, Mr Dabbydo,

prove your opinion

And Hartmann? Or di Hartmann needn´t to prove his claims? I´v wrote upper about "logic", about how german count increased when german lost the battles and they needed superheroes for moral... it is very funny: always 1943, 1944, 1945 when german LOST ALL THE BATTLES in Russian Front.. when VVS won the air superiority.

His record is well documented

Not, nor by german nor by russian oficcial records:

The "guilty" not only is Hartmann but the german system

Хартман сбил от 80 самолетов и возможно чуть выше - подробности - в свежем номере Ле Фана Де Авиасьон - статья Хазанова. Оф кос на французском - всем читать! 300 раз! Ку!
У немцев победа - выведение противника из боя. (That´s the "german system") Попал - победа, сбил - тоже победа, подбил - победа, даже просто в кинофотопулемете отметка в перекрестьи - и то победа. Поэтому у них больше всех. Остальные не так считали. У лучшего американца 40, у англичанина - 38 кааатся. Зато у фина - 96! - немецкая система. У японцев правда своя - 64. Ну и мы - Кожедуб-Покрышкин 64-59 каатся.

Never have you asked why american, british, russian, polish, czech.. had less scores? British 38, USA 40, Italy 34, Russia (between 59/64, Kozhedub, Pokryshkin)... and germans 355!!!!!!!!!
It is funny because another country used the "german system" was Finland... and very funny, the finnish ace 97 "kills"? more than american, british? How? maybe Finnish aces flought more hours and more air battles than allied aces?

It is the system... by other side HARTMANN KILLS isn´t recognized by russian official records.

Thanks a lot.

Also It is very funny to speak about "the types" of Hartmann victories:

Majority La-5.. vere very very funny, really...

Regards