Re: Arnim & Beck & Blaskowitz & Dollmann

[Stauffenberg II]

Hi everybody!

Some questions about controversial facts:

1. Didn´t Arnim (Hans-Jürgen) receive the Ärmelband "Afrika". He served there for more than 4 months and would have qualified.
2. Did Beck receive the Ritterkreuz des Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern or not? [skalman.nu vs. ABR]
3. Did Blaskowitz receive the DKiG or DKiS (30.10.1943). [skalman.nu vs. ABR]
4. Did Dollmann just die or did he commit suicide. More and more opinions I have heard stressed the latter version because he was about to be displaced by AH.

Thanks,
Stauffenberg II

BTW: Where was the Ritterkreuz des Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern worn?

[Gareth Collins]

Hi,
1. He did not recieve that award.
2. According to my sources Beck did not.
3. DKiG.
4. He died of a heart attack in his HQ, there were witnesses.

And the Ritterkreuz des Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern was warn around the neck, but it was not always worn.

Regards
Gareth

[Stauffenberg II]

Hi Gareth!

As usual very prompt and helpful! Many thanks. I will now close the files of Case 1 (Arnim) and 4 (Dollmann).

But if you don´t mind I will wait a little bit to close these of Case 2 (Beck) and 3 (Blaskowitz). There must be sources stating otherwise because Michael Miller stated the controversial facts (as well as Jason Pipes, regarding Blaskowitz DK).

I only want to be absolutely clear in these high ranking officers files.

Regards to the island,
Stauffenberg II

[Glenn2438]

Stauffenberg II,

Ludwig Beck was awarded the Ritterkreuz des Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern on the 17th of July 1917 as a general staff Hauptmann on the staff of Heeresgruppe Deutscher Kronprinz. The knight's Cross or 3rd class grade of this order was not a neck order. Below is a scan from the 1928 Rangliste showing the then Oberst Beck's orders. The symbol for the Honhenzollern House Order is the one preceding the Iron Cross 1st Class.

Regards
Glenn

[Stauffenberg II]

Thanks Glenn!

I will have to learn more about the awards. If the award was not worn around the neck where was it worn? I never saw a bearer wearing this award.

Here is a pic of Hans-Jürgen von Arnim´s breast:



I can´t see the Ritterkreuz (H) and the "Frozen meat medal". Were they only worn in the ribbon bar?

Thanks a lot,
Stauffenberg II

[Stauffenberg II]

Glenn,

sorry to bother. Can you please tell me which persons (Generalfeldmarschall and Generaloberst, Army) received the Roter-Adler Orden - Red Eagle. The online sources seem to rate this award very high. It seems that Beck was awarded the Red Eagle if the first symbol in your scanned Rangliste means this award. Furthermore I know that Rundstedt was a bearer.

Greetings,
Stauffenberg II

[Glenn2438]

Hi Stauffenberg II,

the Knight's Cross of the Hohenzollern House Order was worn on the medal bar. The ribbon could be worn on either the medal ribbon bar or in the 2nd buttonhole. The ribbon is the same as the WW1 EK2 but is usually recognizable by the small ribbon device of crossed swords surmounted by a crown.

Beck's orders as per the symbols:

Crown Order 4th Class
House Order of Hohenzollern Knight's Cross with Swords
Iron Cross 1st and 2nd Class
Officers' 25 year Service Cross
Saxon Albrechts Order Knight's Cross 1st Class with Swords
Württemberg Friedrich's Order Knight's Cross 1st Class with Swords
Hamburg Hanseatic Cross
Oldenburg Friedrich-August Cross 1st Class
Bremen Hanseatic Cross
Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Faithful Service
Turkish Iron Crescent

Although von Arnim was a recipient of the House Order of Hohenzollern Knight's Cross with Swords I can't see the device on his ribbon bar.

Rundstedt did not have any class of the Red Eagle Order. Like Beck he had a Crown Order 4th Class.

Check out this excellent article on ribbon bars at the Wehrmacht Awards.com site:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/ribbons/index.htm

I'll see if any of the GFM and Generalobersten had a Red Eagle Order.

Regards
Glenn

[Stauffenberg II]

Many thanks Glenn!

Maybe I was misinformed regarding Rundstedt.

see:
http://www.islandfarm.fsnet.co.uk/Field ... stedt3.htm

I have read in an online source that the Red Eagle was only awarded for 116 times in WWI.

Here is the nice medal:



Regards,
Stauffenberg II

[Gareth Collins]

Royal Hohenzollern House Order, as its name implies, was not so much a Prussian order as an order of the Prussian ruling family, the Hohenzollerns. Nonetheless, this order earned an important place in the heirarchy of Prussian military awards of the First World War. The knight's cross of this order became a bridge to the considerable gap between the Iron Cross, first class, and the Pour le Merite for recognizing heroism., while the Crown Order and Red Eagle (logical choices) remained fairly exclusive.
There was also a "member's cross" of the order which was available to non-commissioned officers, but was rarely awarded. When awarded for duty in a combat unit or for combat operations, the decoration had swords between the arms of the cross. There were over 8,000 awards made during World War I, the vast majority of them knight's crosses.


I don't think Beck recieved the Knight's Cross version, I could be wrong on this, but it's rare

[Gareth Collins]

Order of the Red Eagle. In the 1700s, the Order of the Brandenburger Red Eagle, passed in the Prussian Orders system, eventually settling just below the Pour le Mérite in prestige. Prior to the First World War, the Order of the Red Eagle (with Grand Cross, & 4 classes ) was awarded to recognize valor in combat or excellence in military leadership. It was, as with the Order of the Crown and other Prussian orders, both a military and a civil award, with the addition of crossed swords to indicate a military award.
The 1st Class badge differed from the lower classes in that it was a white enameled maltese cross with red and gold eagles between the arms. The lower classes' badge was the flat-ended St. George style cross, without eagles.
During World War I, award of the Red Eagle Order was limited somewhat in order to preserve its prestige. The 3rd and 4th classas were awarded only 116 times. (Click here to see a 4th Class cross, w/o swords and with the order's peacetime ribbon). Manfred von Richtofen, the famed "Red Baron," received the third class of the order with both crown and swords- an unusually high honor for a mere captain, even if he was a hero and a baron.
There was also a medal of the order, which could be awarded to enlisted men and non-commissioned officers

[Stauffenberg II]

The Red Eagle is a strange medal. Richthofen had 80 confirmed kills and was only awarded the 3rd Class.

What must have been done to earn the higher classes. Destroying the British Home Fleet with a double-decker (2nd Class) and flying home via New York (1st Class).


Stauffenberg II

[Jeremy Dixon]

When did von Arnim win the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class, what was the date in WWI please.

Thanks

[Dieter Zinke]

Hi everybody!

Some questions about controversial facts:
4. Did Dollmann just die or did he commit suicide. More and more opinions I have heard stressed the latter version because he was about to be displaced by AH.

Thanks,
Stauffenberg II

Hallo Stauffenberg II,

Dollmann commited suicide, witness: Max Pemsel, his Chef des Stabes.

Dieter Z.

[JC]

When did von Arnim win the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class, what was the date in WWI please.

Thanks

EK II - 16.09.1914
EK I - 02.11.14

JC

[Jeremy Dixon]

Thank you so much JC.

Regards