Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

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askropp
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Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#1

Post by askropp » 21 Dec 2014, 21:07

Although the actual promotions were mostly made during the month, they were usually made effective from the first of either the same month (backdated) or the next one. The same is the case for most RDAs. But in some instances, especially in the cases of some prominent officers, "uneven" effective and RDA dates were used. On some of those, I found contradictory evidence.

(As I have no access to original documents, I usually trust the Biblio "Ritterkreuzträger" series most because it contains all three dates: actual promotion, effective date and RDA. Unfortunately, the series never got beyond the letter "F" for infantry and "H" for Panzer soldiers; artillery as the third big branch wasn't even begun. So there remain the "Generale des Heeres" series and websites as "Lexikon der Wehrmacht", unithistories.com etc. Also, I managed to procure a copy of the 1944/45 Rangliste des Heeres.)

On Georg Lindemann:

Biblio "Generale des Heeres"
05.07.1942 Generaloberst mit RDA vom 03.07.1942

1944/45 Rangliste des Heeres
Rangdienstalter 03.07.1942

No problem.

On Hans-Jürgen von Arnim:

Biblio "Ritterkreuzträger" and "Generale des Heeres"
04.12.1942 Generaloberst mit Wirkung vom 03.12.1942 (no RDA mentioned)

1944/45 Rangliste des Heeres
Rangdienstalter 03.12.1942

Of course that could mean that, as often, Wirkung and RDA were of the same date. If so, again no problem.

But now

On Georg von Küchler

Biblio "Generale des Heeres"
30.06.1942 Generalfeldmarschall mit RDA vom 08.07.1942

1944/45 Rangliste des Heeres
Rangdienstalter 30.06.1942

So, who is right here?
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Re: Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#2

Post by Stauffenberg II » 21 Dec 2014, 22:57

Hi!

Re. Küchler: I would not doubt the RDA of the 1944 rank list, so 30.06.1942 is our primary source. Full stop!

I think Biblio should possibly read 08.07.1942 Generalfeldmarschall mit RDA vom 30.06.1942. That would make sense in accordance with: https://www.bundesarchiv.de/oeffentlich ... -3.html.de

Jürgen


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Re: Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#3

Post by histan » 22 Dec 2014, 01:54

One of the two copies of the DAL for May 1942 (NARA T-78 R-514) contains manuscript changes to reflect promotions into 1943.

This shows an initial RDA for von Küchler of 08.07.1942 but that this was later changed to 30.06.1942 to put him ahead of von Manstein who had an RDA of 01.07.1942.

This is just one example of the way that RDAs were changed to put officers in a desired position in the DAL.

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John

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Re: Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#4

Post by askropp » 22 Dec 2014, 15:19

Thanks, I already suspected something like that. Manstein was only an Army commander, so it would have been a snub to Küchler as Heeresgruppen commander if he had been placed behind him, especially as it was planned to use AOK 11 in the Leningrad area where Küchler commanded.
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Re: Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#5

Post by askropp » 20 Jun 2015, 20:57

According to Wegener (Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Band 6), Küchler was promoted in the FHQ by Hitler himself on 30 June 1942 (the announcement in the press was also from that day). So it definitely should be:

30.06.1942 Generalfeldmarschall mit sofortiger Wirkung und RDA vom 08.07.1942
00.00.1942 RDA vom 30.06.1942 erhalten

I wonder why 8 July was chosen as the initial RDA. Rommel got the date of the capture of Tobruk, Manstein the date of the capture of Sevastopol. But I can't see why Küchler and Lindemann were not simply given a RDA of 1 July.
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Re: Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#6

Post by askropp » 26 Jun 2015, 16:31

Meanwhile, I started to work through the DALs myself, and I noticed that both Küchler's and Manstein's promotion have been added to the 1942 DAL as of 15.07.1942. But their promotions had already been announced to the press on 30 June and 1 July respectively. So maybe 15 July was the date Küchler's RDA was rearranged? Lindemann's promotion is also listed as of 15 July, so maybe the 5 July from Die Generale des Heeres is a typo?
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Re: Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#7

Post by histan » 26 Jun 2015, 17:31

15.07.1942 would be the date on which the promotions/assignments list was issued that contained the details of the promotions of von Manstein, von Küchler, and Lindemann. (Or that separate orders were issued on the same date!)

From the positions in the DAl, von Manstein first then von Küchler, it looks like this list or lists had von Manstein mit Wirkung vom 01.07.1942 and von Küchler mit Wirkung vom 08.07.1942.

I don't have a copy of these orders but I hope that they will be contained in the rolls I am waiting for from NARA.

Regards

John

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Re: Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#8

Post by histan » 25 Jul 2015, 12:42

I now have copies of the orders for the promotions of von Manstein, von Küchler and Lindemann:

Mit wirkung vom 1 Juli 1942 Generalobest von Manstein promoted to Generalfeldmarschall Nr.5020/42 PA/Ag p 1/1.Abt.(c) dated 5 July 1942

Mit sofortiger Wirkung Generaloberst von Küchler promoted to Generalfeldmarschall Nr.4970/42 PA/Ag P 1/1.Abt.(c) dated 8 July 1942

Mit Wirkung vom 3 Juli 1942 General der Kavallerie Lindemann promoted to Generaloberst Nr.5000/42 PA/Ag P 1/1.Abt.(c) dated 5 July 1942

All three of these orders were combined with other promotions, appointments, etc in Nr.4930/42 g Ag P1/Ref 9 dated 15 July 1942

Looking at the numbering of the orders it looks like that for von Küchler was drafted before that for von Manstein but for some reason was issued later, possibly resulting in an incorrect RDA for von Küchler.

von Küchler's RDA was changed to 30 june 1942 in Nr.632/42 g.Ag P1/Ref9 dated 14 September 1942

Regards

John

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Re: Officers with "uneven" RDA / here: GFM Küchler

#9

Post by askropp » 25 Jul 2015, 22:30

Thank you very much! It is strange that those orders were made official with a delay of several days after they had been announced to the world press. Küchler's and Manstein's promotions were definitely announced on 30 June and 1 July and in the newspapers one day later.
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