Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

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JDKR
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Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#1

Post by JDKR » 11 May 2015, 18:13

I am seeking confirmation that Guderian was still Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. in April 1945. Also, did this appointment have operational authority over armoured formations/units or was it purely responsible for standards, doctrine etc?

My thanks in advance for any help.

JDKR

JDKR
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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#2

Post by JDKR » 13 May 2015, 22:20

I have begun to answer my own question...

Guderian was no longer Gen.Insp.d.PzTr in April 45 as he relinquished the appointment on 20 April 1944 to become Chef Generalstab des Heeres. His Chief of Staff at Gen.Insp.d.PzTr was Gen.Lt. Wolfgang Thomale. As Guderian was not replaced as Gen.Insp.d.PzTr, is it safe to assume that Thomale took on all the responsibilities of the post? I have a list of the functions of Gen.Insp.d.PzTr, which I found in Guderian's book 'Panzer Leader', so no need for any responses on this aspect.

JDKR


histan
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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#3

Post by histan » 14 May 2015, 01:07

I don't think Guderian relinquished his post as Gen.Insp.d.PzTr.

His appointment was:
21.07.1944 mWdGb Chef Gen St d H unter Beibehalt seiner bisherigen Aufgabe.

Rough English translation - tasked with the duties of Chief of the General Staff while retaining his previous responsibilities.

On 01.04.1945 hes was sent on leave from "the duties of Chief of the General Staff" - being replaced by Hans Krebs.

So, I think the answer to your question is yes. He was officially Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. in April 1945 but may have been on leave.

Regards

John

ps I think it's an error in Mehner.

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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#4

Post by askropp » 14 May 2015, 13:44

According to "Die Generale des Heeres", Guderian went to Tirol and rejoined the Staff of the Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. after he was replaced as Generalstabschef, going into captivity with the staff after the surrender.
There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.

JDKR
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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#5

Post by JDKR » 15 May 2015, 12:11

Many thanks John. I tend to regard Mehner as authoritative as it is the only reference I have for senior appointments.

I have read into 'Panzer Leader' and Guderian corroborates your (and askropp's) reply. According to Guderian he was appointed Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. on 1 Mar 43 and was dual-roled with this appointment and Chef OKH on 21 Jul 44. On 29 March Guderian handed over his duties to Krebs and on 1 April 45 went on sick leave, to emerge on 1 May where he met up with the staff of Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. somewhere in the Tirol. So my question is...did Krebs take over both roles or was Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. left in the hands of Thomale, Guderian's Chef at Gen.Insp.d.PzTr.?

Anyhow, the reason why I am interested in the association of April 45 and the appointment Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. is my research into an armoured counter-attack launched on 6 April 45 by Kampfgruppe Schulze against the British bridgehead on the Weser. My understanding is that on 3 April Major Paul Schulze received a telephone call direct from OKH ordering him to mount the attack. Schulze was a member of staff of the Panzertruppen Schule at Bergen. I was always a bit puzzled why he should have received a telephone call direct from OKH and did not receive his marching orders from Wehrkreis XI/Korps Hannover, which was responsible for deploying training establishments in its region and the defence of this area. However, now that I know that Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. was dual-roled with OKH this makes perfect sense. What I am now trying to determine is who might have given him the order...

It could not have been Guderian as he had had his feet up in the sanatorium since 1 April. So would it have been Krebs or Thomale?

From Panzer-Archive.de I came across this quote "Aus den Notizen des Gen.Insp. d.PzTr. zum Führervortrag am 9.4.45 über die Aufstellungen aus der Panzer-Truppen-Schule Bergen:..." The quote was provided by Jan-Hendrik and then went on to describe the organization of Kampfgruppe Schulze. Although the date is odd (the counter-attack had taken place 3 days previously), I am interested in the 'Führervortrag' aspect. My understanding of 'Führervortrag' is that it refers to a Führer conference. Am I right? So could the order to launch the counter-attack come from Hitler himself or is the the 'Führer' in 'Führervortrag' referring to the leader of Gen.Insp. d.PzTr.?

This is all massively detailed stuff and perhaps the answer is anyhow lost in the chaos of the endgame. Very grateful for any thoughts you may have!

John

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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#6

Post by histan » 15 May 2015, 17:23

Hi John

Unfortunately, all of the published secondary sources (Keilig, Mehner, Die General des Heeres, etc) contain mistakes and errors which can be very difficult to detect. Some of the activity in this forum is about resolving them!

Hans Krebs
01.04.1945 mstWdGb Chef d Gen St d H
Roughly in English - tasked temporarily with the duties of Chief of the General Staff

So Guderian remained officially Chief of the General Staff with Krebs being tasked with standing in for him in just that post while he was on leave.

Investigating further, in an assessment of Thomale dated 16.01.1945 Guderian writes "Generalmajor Thomale führt seit 20.07.1944 als mein Vertreter in vorbildlicher Weise der Geschäfte des Gen.Insp.d.PzTr."

So, I think you are correct to assume that in the absence of Guderian any decisions would have been made by Thomale.

Regards

John

JDKR
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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#7

Post by JDKR » 15 May 2015, 18:10

John - again, many thanks. Unless someone else comes up with information to the contrary, I reckon Thomale is the man. By the way, how did you know I had used Mehner?!

John

histan
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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#8

Post by histan » 15 May 2015, 23:16

Hi John

The date 20.04.1944!

When I read your post I went to the primary sources I have (the card indexes that the HPA maintained) for Guderian's appointments. Then went to my copy of Mehner and saw 20.04.1944! (I think it's a typo and was meant to be 20.07.1944) and put two and two together. Also I am sure I read in another of your posts that you had a copy.

Only sorry that I can't help on your main question.

Regards

John

JDKR
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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#9

Post by JDKR » 13 Jul 2015, 21:04

More help needed; I'm confused! I have recently come across a copy of a page (http://www.truppenuebungsplatzbergen.co ... hron19.htm) from the visitor's book of Panzertruppenschule Bergen for the visit of Der Inspekteur der Panzertruppen and the name on the page and signature is of General von Geyr. The visit was made on 17 Oct 44. Yet Guderian in his book Panzer Leader states that he assumed the appointment Inspector-General Armoured Troops on 1 March 43. The Lexikon der Wehrmacht bio for von Geyr states: 'Im August 1944 wurde er zum Inspekteur der Panzertruppen des Ersatzheeres ernannt'. Could it be that Guderian was the Inspector General but that von Geyr was responsible for the Ersatzheeres aspects? Any help gratefully received!

John

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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#10

Post by Rossano » 15 Jul 2015, 13:04

Hello
Geyr was "Inspekteur der Panzertruppen" whilst Guderian was "Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen" (2 different offices)
Rossano

JDKR
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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#11

Post by JDKR » 15 Jul 2015, 15:37

Greetings Rossano,

Many thanks. Why didn't I see that? I am very relieved as I thought I was about to be seriously confused. As a matter of interest, do you know why, when Guderian went on sick leave on 1 April 1945, he handed over his inspectorate duties to Thomale rather then Geyr? Perhaps by then Geyr was no longer the Inspector and had taken up some other post.

regards (and thanks)

John

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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#12

Post by Rossano » 15 Jul 2015, 16:27

Because Thomale was already acting (m.W.d.G.b.) Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Truppen

JDKR
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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#13

Post by JDKR » 16 Jul 2015, 11:11

Many thanks.

John

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Re: Generalinspekteur der Panzer-Truppen - 1945

#14

Post by Mori » 19 Apr 2018, 00:03

JDKR wrote:I am seeking confirmation that Guderian was still Gen.Insp.d.PzTr. in April 1945.
Guderian signs the daily orders as Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen on April 18th but also on April 22nd.

The April 20th order is signed by Thomale. That's between April 18th and 22nd, so maybe Thomale is just "acting" chief of staff while Guderian is away.

The April 23rd and, I assume, last daily order is not signed.

These documents (with hand written signatures) are available in the archives, and online: http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... rid/zoom/1

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