German High Commanders of WW2

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by askropp and Frech.
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genstab
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#61

Post by genstab » 21 Apr 2016, 23:53

Excellent, John. Your sources trump the original OKH plans we find in secondary sources by providing cancellations from the primary ones. Much appreciated.

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Bill in Cleveland

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#62

Post by histan » 22 Apr 2016, 00:44

Hi Bill

It isn't just the secondary sources - it is what are often regarded as primary sources that miss some of these changes.

The Dienstlaufbahn for Henrici has the following entries
65: 12.11.1943 m. d. Führung d. 4. Pz.Armee beauftragt Vfg 8230/43 v 12.11.43
66: 22.11.1943 FR OKH

The same information found its way onto the HPA card listing the commanders of 4. Pz.Armee and onto his "Generalskartei"

So, of course you find it in Bradley and Wegmann & Zweng (Mehner has a different error!).

It is only when you check the KTBs for 4. Pz.Armee and XXXXX. Pz.Korps that it becomes clear that Henrici never in fact left the Korps and that Hoth remained in command of the army.

The more I investigate, the more I am convinced that many of the "mistakes" in Bradley are actually in the original Dienstlaufbahn.

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John


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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#63

Post by askropp » 23 Apr 2016, 10:57

Could you guys take a look at this post in the signature thread and help me figure out whether someone commanded AOK 17 between Hoth and Salmuth?
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#64

Post by histan » 23 Apr 2016, 12:20

The original tasking of von Salmuth was from 21.04.1942 to 17.05.1942, which was later extended to 31.05.1942.

KTB AOK 17 24 April 1942
Eingang schriftl. Befehl, daß Generaloberst Hoth vom Mitte Mai ab zum Oberbefehlshaber der 4 Panzer-Armee ernannt und bis zu diesem Zeitpunkt beurlaubt wird. Als Nachfolger trifft vertretungsweise General der Infanterie von Salmuth ein. Zum Oberbefelshaber der 17 Armee wird General der Infanterie Ruoff ernannt ; Eintreffen voraussichtlich Mitte Mai.

KTB AOK 17 I June 1942
Dabei auch der neue OB der 17 Armee, Generaloberst Ruoff, und der bisherige stellv. OB, General v Salmuth, der die Führung der Armee an Generaloberst Ruoff übergibt.

There is correspondence between von salmuth (dated 09.05.1942) and Bodewin Keitel (dated 21.05.1942) about von Salmuth receiving some money because he would have been a Veertreter for more than 1 month (officially 21.04.1942 - 31.05.1942)

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#65

Post by askropp » 23 Apr 2016, 12:49

Thank you, this confirms what I found out. So the conclusion must probably be that Salmuth had a very peculiar handwriting.
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Re: German army commanders of WW2: 5. Armee

#66

Post by askropp » 25 Apr 2016, 15:57

5. Armee
01.09.1939 - 04.11.1939 General der Infanterie z.V. Curt Liebmann

I'm not sure about the end date. AOK 5 was named "Grenzschutzabschnittskommando Mitte" for a while before it became AOK 18. I tend to ignore this name change because it was essentially only a deceptive measure. But then again Liebmann is said to have been dismissed as OB on 30 October. If so, who commanded until Küchler took over?
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Re: German army commanders of WW2: 5. Panzerarmee

#67

Post by askropp » 03 May 2016, 15:46

5. Panzerarmee (24.01.1944 to 06.08.1944 Panzergruppe West)
08.12.1942 – 09.03.1943 Generaloberst Hans-Jürgen von Arnim
09.03.1943 – 09.05.1943 General der Panzertruppe Gustav von Vaerst
24.01.1944 – 03.07.1944 General der Panzertruppe Leo Freiherr Geyr von Schweppenburg (bis 20.04.1944 mdFb)
03.07.1944 – 09.08.1944 General der Panzertruppe Heinrich Eberbach (mdFb)
10.08.1944 – 11.09.1944 SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer Josef Dietrich (bis 23.08.1944 mdFb)
11.09.1944 – 09.03.1945 General der Panzertruppe Hasso von Manteuffel (bis 30.01.1945 mdFb)
09.03.1945 – 17.04.1945 Generaloberst Josef Harpe

Mystery surrounds the arrival of Vaerst in Africa as the KTB PzAOK 5 (preserved until 21.04.1943) says not a single word about Arnim's promotion to HGr Afrika command or Vaerst's takeover.
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Re: German army commanders of WW2: 6. Armee

#68

Post by askropp » 13 May 2016, 16:19

6. Armee
10.10.1939 – 14.01.1942 Generaloberst (19.07.1940 Generalfeldmarschall) Walter von Reichenau
16.01.1942 – 20.01.1942 Generaloberst Hermann Hoth (mdstvFb)
20.01.1942 – 31.01.1943 General der Panzertruppe (30.11.1942 Generaloberst, 31.01.1943 Generalfeldmarschall) Friedrich Paulus
06.03.1943 – 23.11.1943 General der Infanterie (17.09.1943 Generaloberst) Karl-Adolf Hollidt
23.11.1943 – 25.11.1943 General der Gebirgstruppe Ferdinand Schörner (mdstvFb)
25.11.1943 – 20.12.1943 General der Artillerie Maximilian de Angelis (mdstvFb)
20.12.1943 – 05.04.1944 Generaloberst Karl-Adolf Hollidt
05.04.1944 – 19.07.1944 General der Artillerie Maximilian de Angelis (bis 20.04.1944 mdstvFb, dann mdFb)
19.07.1944 – 23.12.1944 General der Artillerie Maximilian Fretter-Pico (mdFb)
23.12.1944 – 08.05.1945 General der Panzertruppe Hermann Balck

I'm not sure about Kleist, but he was mstvFb HGr Süd shortly, and both Reichenau and Hoth held both commands during their tenure.
Last edited by askropp on 14 May 2016, 13:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#69

Post by histan » 14 May 2016, 00:26

My analysis is that von Kleist can not be listed as a commander of Heeresgruppe Süd or as a commander of AOK 6.

THe KTB of Heeresgruppe Süd states that von Kleist was told that he was to become Vertreter for von Reichenau but was told soon afterwards that there had been a change of plan and that Hoth was to take over instead. There is no mention of this in the KTB of Pz AOK 1 and no indication that von Kleist ever left its HQ. There is no mention of this in the KTB of AOK 6. There is no indication in the KTB of Heeresgruppe Süd that von Kleist arrived at its HQ and took over command.

This situation is similar to that of von Salmuth and PZ AOK 4, where an actual order was issued tasking von Salmuth with the command of Pz AOK while Ruoff was on leave but this was changed before he could arrive and take over.

Also, to that of Rudolf Schmidt who was told on 11.11.1941 that the was to stand in for von Weichs at AOK 2 while von Weichs was ill. His period of command is given from the date of his arrival at HQ AOK 2.

And also that of von Weichs, who attended a meeting with von Bock as OB AOK 2 on 21.10.1939 but is listed as being in command from 23.10.1939, the date he arrived at HQ AOK 2.

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John

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#70

Post by genstab » 14 May 2016, 02:56

I have Joachim Lemelsen as stand-in from 5-3-44 to late 3-44 (Bradley), and Sigfrid Henrici from 25-3-44 to 7-4-44 (again Bradley) . Are these wrong according to your probably superior primary sources?

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#71

Post by askropp » 14 May 2016, 16:01

@John: Well, I deleted Kleist, but whom should we consider to have been in command between Reichenau and Hoth? The Chefs (Sodenstern for HGr Süd and Heim for AOK 6)?

@Bill: The KTB shows Hollidt in command, so these appointments were either never made or once again cancelled.
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#72

Post by histan » 16 May 2016, 00:32

Lemelsen's entry is a typo, it should have been 8 Armee [This. I am sure will be discussed under AOK 8]

The story of Henrici
A period of leave was approved for Generaloberst Hollidt and the HPA sent the following message to H Gr A concerning his stand in.
"Für die Dauer der Beurlaubung des Generaloberst Hollidt, OB 6 Armee, wird beauftragt General der Panzertruppe Henrici, FR OKH, mit der stellv Führung der 6 Armee. Inmarschsetzung erfolgt durch PA.
Fernschreiben to H Gr A from OKH/HPA Ag P 1 Chefgruppe (b) dated 25.03.1944

GFM von Kleist the sent back this message, showing a lack of confidence in Henrici
"Gen. d. Pz.Tr. Henrici macht mir nicht den Eindruck als wenn er an seine schwierigen Aufgaben mit dem nötigen Selbstvertrauen herangeht. Er hatte mit einer stehenden Front , ausreichender Truppe und Munition gerechnet und ist nun beeindruckt; keinesfalls aber ist er der Mann, der in dieser Lage die Kraft ausstrahlt, die die Armee gebraucht..
Ich kann es noch nicht verantworten ihm die 6 Armee, werde ihm aber einige Tage Zeit geben, sich in diese Lage einzufühlen und dann mein endgültiges Urteil abgeben." [original all in capitol letters - please correct any transcription mistakes I might have made.]
FS to OKH PA 1.Staffel from GFM von Kleist IIa Nr.100/44 geh Kdos dated 26.03.1944

GFM von Kleist then seems to have postponed Hollidt's leave and attached Henrici to 6 Armee.
"An 6 Armee
Der 6. Armee wird der General d. Pz.Tr. Henrici für die vorbereitende Organisation der Verteidigung des Brückenkopfes Odessa - Tiraspol unterstellt. Er wird mit dem 29.3.44, zu 6. Armee kommandiert.
Heeresgruppe A Ia Nr.1234/44 gKdos dated 12,00 Uhr 29.03.1944"

Generaloberst Schörner then replaced Generalfeldmarschall von Kleist and Heeresgruppe A was renamed Heeresgruppe Südukraine and the requirement for Hollidt to go on sick leave returned.

So Schörner wrote to Schmundt (copied to Zeitler) saying that he agreed with von Kleist that Henrici should not stand in for Hollidt and that de Angelis should instead
"Ich habe mich auf Grund der bei der 6. Armee angetroffenen Verhältnisse und nach Rücksprache mit Generalfeldmarschall von Kleist und Generaloberst Hollidt entschlossen, mit der Führung der Armee den General der Artillerie de Angelis zu beauftragen.
Generaloberst Hollidt sollte schon seit 8 Tagen wegen seines z.Zt. sehr leidenden Zustandes (ernster Muskelrheumatismus der rechten Hand, die nicht gebraucht werden kann) in Urlaub fahren. Er bat mich auch beim ersten Zusammentreffen, diesen Urlaub jetzt antreten zu können.
Ich konnte mich nicht dazu entschließen, in dieser ernsten Lage den General der Panzertruppe Henrici die beabsichtigte Führung der Armee antreten zu lassen. Ich beziehe mich auf das schon vorher durch Fernschreiben an das OKH übermitelte Urteil des Generalfeldmarschall von Kleist, dessen Berechtigung ich an Ort und Stelle in vollem Umfang als richtig erkannte." dated 08.04.1944
Ich bitte dem General der Artillerie de Angelis in der ihm übertragenen Aufgabe die Gelegenheit zur Bewährung zu geben."

The response was immediate
"Für die Dauer der Beurlaubung des Generaloberst Hollidt, OB 6. Armee, wird beauftragt General der Artillerie de Angelis, Kom. Gen. XXXXIV. AK, mit der stellv. Führung der 6. Armee, Generalleutnant Kohler, Kdr. 306. ID, mit der stellv. Führung des XXXXIV. AK. Die Beauftragung des General der Panzertruppe Henrici mit der stellv. Führung der 6. Armee is damit beendet, er tritt in die Führ.Res. OKH zurück, wirtschaftlich zugeteilt WKrs III."
Fernschreiben to HGr SU IIa from HPA Ag P 1 Chefgruppe (b) dated 08.04.1944

From this it looks like the HPA had not previously cancelled Henrici's tasking as standing in for Hollidt at 6. Armee - even though it had never actually happened.

Henrici completed his attachment to 6. Armee in May 1944
"Mit Wirkung vom 8. Mai 44 wird die Kommandierung des General der Panzertruppe Henrici, Führ.Res. OKH zur H Guppe Südukraine (Festungslandstab Krim) aufgehoben. Er ist wirtschaftlich dem WKrs III zugeteilt.
Fernschreiben to HGruppe Südukraine from HPA Ag P 1 Chefgruppe (b) dated 08.05.1944

The HPA announced these taskings in appointments lists issued in May and June 1944, which were the sources of the following entries in Henrici's Dienstlaufbahn:
"67 25.03.1944 mit der stellv Führung der 6 Armee beauftragt (Vfg 3220 v 13.05.1944)
68 07.04.1944 die Beauftragung Nr 67 aufgehoben (Vfg 3240 v 15.05.1944)
68a 08.05.1944 d Kdo z H Gru Südukraine (Festungslandstab Krim) wird aufgehoben. (Vfg 3990 v 20.06.1944)

The HPA clerks responsible for maintaining the Dienstlaufbahn, the "Generalskartei", and the HPA Armee card would most likely only have seen copies of the appointments lists and not the previous correspondence. It is these appointments lists that are the source of the confusion.

For me it is satisfying to understand why the various sources show Henrici tasked with leading 6. Armee when the KTB does not.

Regards

John

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#73

Post by genstab » 16 May 2016, 16:51

That's great, John! What I also like is that we also get a picture of Corps or division commanders who were also away from their commands acting at these higher commands that helps point out absences there to fill in with mFb replacements later.

I see that according to Bradley. GenLt Koehler was mFb Festungs Kreta for that time period, which was obviously changed. His termination date for the mFb is given as 20-4-44 which is, faute de mieux, probably the date he returned to 306. ID from XXXXIV. AK.

Thanks much for the help!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#74

Post by askropp » 23 May 2016, 17:22

6. Panzerarmee
14.09.1944 – 08.05.1945 SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer und Generaloberst der Waffen-SS Josef Dietrich (bis 25.10.1944 mdFb)
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#75

Post by Stauffenberg II » 24 May 2016, 13:00

Dear all,

I do not want to get off topic but does anybody know when Hollidt became Chief of Staff 5. Armee in September 1939. Actually this was the first major revirement on higher level. Anybody happen to have original data on Hollidt/Sixt von Armin?

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