Awardholders / unit

[Bernd R]

Shawn and Wilco,

some in-depth and detail work here. Done (thanks ) and needed. It seems the DKiG+DKiS side-step has opened a little pandora. I don't want to overstrain this and if so give me a shot in front of the feet please. But we should attempt to find solutions that is final and maybe preliminary listings.

Going step by step we have the DKiG+DKiS recipients to finish, looking for this new Karl Krüger issue and taking into consideration the Scheibert DKiG addendum. I would have quoted that list, too, Shawn. Not alone the Luftwaffe to face DKiG problems but also this section. Hm

I suggest to have the listing for Meixner and Zieb as follows. All gathered what we had until now. Most likely Meixner's appointment to Sonderführer (Kapitän zur See) has its reason in having to be the highest ranked officer in the Dt. Marinekommando Nordafrika when taking over that command also.

Deutsche Seetransportstellen Nordafrika
German Cross in Gold (1)
Meixner, Dr. jur. Paul, 11.02.1943, Sonderführer (Kapitän zur See), Chef Deutsche Seetransportstelle Italienisch Nordafrika
[formal military rank per 1.2.43 : Fregattenkapitän z.V. ; simultanously Chef Deutsches Marinekommando Nordafrika]
German Cross in Silver (1)
Meixner, Dr. jur. Paul, 06.06.1942, Korvettenkapitän z.V., Chef Deutsche Seetransportstelle Nordafrika

German Cross in Silver (1)
Zieb, Paul-Willy, 18.05.1944, Konteradmiral (Ing.), Chef Oberwerftstab beim Adm. Schwarzes Meer
Kampfgruppe Zieb / from Oberwerftstab Schwarzes Meer
German Cross in Gold (1)
Zieb, Paul-Willy, 28.09.1944, Konteradmiral (Ing.), officially : Chef Oberwerftstab beim Adm. Schwarzes Meer ; in fact : Befehlshaber der Seestreitkräfte auf der unteren Donau u. Führer Kampfgruppe Zieb
[per research and compilation by AHF member Michi :
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=362723#p362723
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=363128#p363128

Bernd

[W.Vermeer]

Thanks a lot Shawn, precious information for me for I do not have that book.
What was the release year of the book? Is there any reason why not all these recipients were placed in P/S?

[W.Vermeer]

Shawn and Wilco,

some in-depth and detail work here. Done (thanks ) and needed. It seems the DKiG+DKiS side-step has opened a little pandora. I don't want to overstrain this and if so give me a shot in front of the feet please. But we should attempt to find solutions that is final and maybe preliminary listings.

Going step by step we have the DKiG+DKiS recipients to finish, looking for this new Karl Krüger issue and taking into consideration the Scheibert DKiG addendum. I would have quoted that list, too, Shawn. Not alone the Luftwaffe to face DKiG problems but also this section. Hm

I suggest to have the listing for Meixner and Zieb as follows. All gathered what we had until now. Most likely Meixner's appointment to Sonderführer (Kapitän zur See) has its reason in having to be the highest ranked officer in the Dt. Marinekommando Nordafrika when taking over that command also.

No problem with that Bernd. By a good revieuw of all possible resources can only give a better result. By including persons, even with some doubt and stating the information, will only ensure that in fitire research such persons will not be forgotten I think.
The suggestions look perfect on the two mentioned persons.

[Bernd R]

RE: DKiG + DKiG holders

what still remains open are Globocnik, Otto Krüger and Erwin Lahousen.

Netzsperrflottille Süd , Piräus

German Cross in Gold (1)
Krüger, Otto, 07.11.1944, Sonderführer (Kapitänleutnant), Chef Netzsperrflottile Süd

German Cross in Silver (1)
Krüger, Otto 26.10.1944, Sonderführer (Kapitänleutnant), Netzsperrflottille (per Scheibert)

depends on what P/S have ; otherwise I tend to add > "[Süd]"

Globocnik :
I'm clueless about the assignment SS- und Polizeiführer Italien
We have to rely on something, clear. Patzwall/Scherzer, DKiG as the newest should be the first choice basically I think. I'm not convinced of that entry. I havn't done further digging for this due to time reasons. Eventually someone with access to the John P. Moore "Führerliste" can help here ?

Lahousen Edler von Vivrement :
Depends on the handling of the "50 credibly proven"


Bernd

[USAF1986]

1) Globocnik, both crosses in position HSSPF Adriatisches Küstenland , SS- und Polizeiführer Italien most likely does originate from a mis-interpretation of Höchster SS- u. Polizeiführer Italien, the higher headquarter ; added to [page 82]

Bernd,

I agree 100% with your assessment! Per Scheibert, Globocnik’s unit for his DKiG is listed incorrectly as Höchster SS- u.Polizei Führer Italien. This post was held by SS-Obergruf. Karl Wolff. Globocnik’s post of Höherer SS- u.Polizei Führer Adriatisches Küstenland was subordinated to Wolff as HöSSPF Italien.

Best regards,
Shawn

SOURCE: Yerger, Mark C. Allgemeine SS: The Commands, Units and Leaders of the General SS. Schiffer Publishing, Ltd., Atglen, Pennsylvania, 1997.

[W.Vermeer]

1) Globocnik, both crosses in position HSSPF Adriatisches Küstenland , SS- und Polizeiführer Italien most likely does originate from a mis-interpretation of Höchster SS- u. Polizeiführer Italien, the higher headquarter ; added to [page 82]
Bernd,

I agree 100% with your assessment! Per Scheibert, Globocnik’s unit for his DKiG is listed incorrectly as Höchster SS- u.Polizei Führer Italien. This post was held by SS-Obergruf. Karl Wolff. Globocnik’s post of Höherer SS- u.Polizei Führer Adriatisches Küstenland was subordinated to Wolff as HöSSPF Italien.

Best regards,
Shawn

SOURCE: Yerger, Mark C. Allgemeine SS: The Commands, Units and Leaders of the General SS. Schiffer Publishing, Ltd., Atglen, Pennsylvania, 1997.

I can agree also. I tend to conclude that Patzwall/Scherzer only coudl find the occupation SS- und Polizeiführer Italien for the DkiG which could mean he then was subordinated to the Höchster SS- u.Polizei Führer Italien as one of the SS- und Polizeiführer in Italien meaning the Höherer SS- u.Polizei Führer Adriatisches Küstenland

[W.Vermeer]

Netzsperrflottille Süd , Piräus

German Cross in Gold (1)
Krüger, Otto, 07.11.1944, Sonderführer (Kapitänleutnant), Chef Netzsperrflottile Süd

German Cross in Silver (1)
Krüger, Otto 26.10.1944, Sonderführer (Kapitänleutnant), Netzsperrflottille (per Scheibert)
depends on what P/S have ; otherwise I tend to add > "[Süd]"

There is no mentioning of any Otto Krüger as DKiS recipient in any of the two volumes of P/S, only mentioning of him as DKiG recipient with Netzsperrflottile Süd

[W.Vermeer]

Lahousen Edler von Vivrement :
Depends on the handling of the "50 credibly proven"

I tend to use the 50 recipients list as actual recipients with Scheibert as the source. The only question I have (but that is only to be answered by the authors I think) is why P/S did invlude some of the names of the list and others not.

[Bernd R]

Hm, Yes, Wilco, we could go like that and list them per Scheibert. We should try to avoid an unlogical and critical method for the DKiG in distinction to what was the choice for the "unofficial KC". Looking for a stringent structural background. The KCs are listed with the header and notes, open to add&corr and new research. Many are secure to not have been awarded "de jure", other cases are characterized by circumstances which allow further research and interpretation. If the handling of the DKiG recipients would follow this logic and method it is better to have them listed all in my point of view. Thereby the material available and the status quo would be represented open for reception and further research/treatment. On the other hand it should be not listed or clearly denoted like that at least what is more speculative or where is a very thin base of facts/info and where is merely a confirmation and/or a confirmation for an award is not yet found.
So, in a way along this line I vote to proceed, Shawn ?

After Scheibert (1982 or 86, said ad-hoc), Patzwall/Scherzer surely were able to find clear confirmations in records to the best, additionally gathered bits and pieces from several sources.
It would be a usefull and necessary step to look for those of the former "50" list per Scheibert who have been confirmed by P/S in the meantime. They can be listed the "ordinary" way.
I fear this is a re-check work for you, Wilco
Most, if not all of the Scheibert addendum have been added to the thread lists as we had such adding rounds once as shown by Shawn with the detailed data sets. I will do a complete review of this group of recipients then according to this new round of handling and clarification.

regards
Bernd

[Bernd R]

Looking for an example which illustrates a stringent method and logic of listing in my eyes I found this one.

Agtha Egon Hptm Luftgaukdo III 1945

from the Scheibert addendum ; turned out that "credibly proven" wasn't speculation and had substance and is confirmed in the meantime.
Listed in the "Feuerwerker" special on [page 14] :

Aghta, Egon 19.01.1945 Leutnant (W) d.R. Führer eines Sprengkommandos im Luftgau III Berlin
[listed per Scherzer, "RKT", 1st ed., page 166 ; is not in Patzwall's ; evidence by a contemporary photo]

hm, sometimes I wrote "gh" and sometime "th" ; Agtha should be the correct name.
The photo is in this Feuerwerker thread e.g. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41862&hilit=Agtha
This case has the additional "hm" factor which means that the DKiG date is provided by Scherzer in his RKT work but Agtha nevertheless is not listed in the P/S DKiG work. The own book on Agtha most likely has it most clearly.

Summarizing this I would state that "credibly proven" can have a Yes here. The DKiG is not retouched. And it was never said that he was wearing the DKiG illegaly / against the regulations.


Like the case above the case of Scharfschütze Josef "Sepp" Allerberger, KC, could be described as "credibly proven" as well. But in contrast to the Agtha case it has to be regarded as clear that the award was against the regulations although a bestowal occured in fact. That's another quality.
Quoting a posting by me from here : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=114599

Regarding Allerberger :
His case is comparable to Elsner. On 20th April 1945 - together with Josef Roth - he was driven to the Korpsgefechtsstand at MÖNNIGHOFEN, a little village near Mährisch-Ostrau. There he was awarded the KC (EK2 used) by GFM Schörner on behalf of the Führer. He was handed out the writing of Schörner and signed photographs of Schörner and Div.Kdr Klatt. Additionally he got a present box with food, cigarrettes and cognac.
Wasn't a very solemn ceremony and was conducted by a Oberst i.G.
[add by me : Allerberger was with 8./Geb.Jäg.Rgt. 144 / 3. Geb.Div. ; so, it has to be the Gefechtsstand of XXXXIX. Gebirgs.AK /Pz.AOK 1 / HGr Mitte ; the Oberst i.G. most probably was the Chef d. Gen.St. of the Korps, couldn't determine his name ; maybe someone knows him ? ; GFM Schörner didn't have authorization to award KCs pre 3rd May 1945 ; nevertheless decided to do so on Führer's birthday]

source :
Albrecht Wacker, "Im Auge des Jäger" - Der Wehrmachts-Scharfschütze Josef Allerberger, 6. Auflage 2007, Verlag VS-BOOKS Herne, ISBN 978-3-932077-27-2

The "grey zones" are the interesting and difficult ones of course. After reading Allerberger's story and especially after that it is not popularity or fun to not list him as an official KC holder and it has nothing to do with a consideration of "deserved/not deserved" or something similar. As long as there is no (final and thorough) legal and historical clarification about those late war award cases it should be one and the appropriate attitude to cover those cases in the light of the specific circumstances.

Bernd

[Bernd R]

Netzsperrflottille Süd , Piräus

German Cross in Gold (1)
Krüger, Otto, 07.11.1944, Sonderführer (Kapitänleutnant), Chef Netzsperrflottile Süd

German Cross in Silver (1)
Krüger, Otto 26.10.1944, Sonderführer (Kapitänleutnant), Netzsperrflottille (per Scheibert)
depends on what P/S have ; otherwise I tend to add > "[Süd]"

There is no mentioning of any Otto Krüger as DKiS recipient in any of the two volumes of P/S, only mentioning of him as DKiG recipient with Netzsperrflottile Süd

What is the choice of listing here ? Really strange indeed two crosses within twelve days ! Several explanations are thinkable. A DKiS process started a longer time before and finished although a DKiG process was started in the meantime. A DKiS process started and shifted to a DKiG process with one award finally. Is it we rely on P/S here or we keep open the gap for the two crosses ?

Bernd

[W.Vermeer]

After Scheibert (1982 or 86, said ad-hoc), Patzwall/Scherzer surely were able to find clear confirmations in records to the best, additionally gathered bits and pieces from several sources.
It would be a usefull and necessary step to look for those of the former "50" list per Scheibert who have been confirmed by P/S in the meantime. They can be listed the "ordinary" way.
I fear this is a re-check work for you, Wilco
Most, if not all of the Scheibert addendum have been added to the thread lists as we had such adding rounds once as shown by Shawn with the detailed data sets. I will do a complete review of this group of recipients then according to this new round of handling and clarification.

I have added them already to the ww2awards.com database via Scheibert, so it will not be to much work to filter those out that are also mentioned in P/S. I will have a go for them soon.

[W.Vermeer]

Looking for an example which illustrates a stringent method and logic of listing in my eyes I found this one.
Agtha Egon Hptm Luftgaukdo III 1945
from the Scheibert addendum ; turned out that "credibly proven" wasn't speculation and had substance and is confirmed in the meantime.
Listed in the "Feuerwerker" special on [page 14] :
Aghta, Egon 19.01.1945 Leutnant (W) d.R. Führer eines Sprengkommandos im Luftgau III Berlin
[listed per Scherzer, "RKT", 1st ed., page 166 ; is not in Patzwall's ; evidence by a contemporary photo]
hm, sometimes I wrote "gh" and sometime "th" ; Agtha should be the correct name.
The photo is in this Feuerwerker thread e.g. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41862&hilit=Agtha
This case has the additional "hm" factor which means that the DKiG date is provided by Scherzer in his RKT work but Agtha nevertheless is not listed in the P/S DKiG work. The own book on Agtha most likely has it most clearly.

Summarizing this I would state that "credibly proven" can have a Yes here. The DKiG is not retouched. And it was never said that he was wearing the DKiG illegaly / against the regulations.

Well I have a suprise for you: In the 2007 Volume I: Patzwall K., Scherzer V., Das Deutsche Kreuz 1941-1945, Geschichte und Inhaber Band I, Verlag Klaus D. Patzwall, Norderstedt, 2007, ISBN 3-91533-46-8
On page 120 are the Nachträge und Argänzungen to Volume II and the first new name that is stated as a proven DKiG recipient is Agtha, Egon, Hauptmann (W) der Reserve, Führer eines Sprengkdos. im LG III, WH, 19.01.1945

[Bernd R]

Sounds good re: the Scheibert "50" / P/S process, thanks Wilco !
Excellent re: Agtha , will correct the rank ! A bit un-relaxed the process, but done is good !
Globocnik down, too then.

...
Seetransportchef Norwegen
German Cross in Silver (2)
Krüger, Karl, 17.01.1945, Sonderführer (Kapitänleutnant), Seetransportchef Norwegen

P/S gives for Karl a very different unit: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/40046
Seetransportstelle Tripoilis / Trapani und Reva , would not tend to make this the same person yet

If there is no objection I will correct this data set. Trapani is on Sicily. For sure he wasn't "Chef " Norwegen as this is a command for a Kapitän z.S.

Seetransportchef Norwegen
German Cross in Silver (2)
Krüger, Karl, 17.01.1945, Sonderführer (Kapitänleutnant), Seetransportchef Norwegen
Wolf, Alfred, 23.03.1945, Kapitän zur See, Seetransportchef Norwegen

Bernd

[W.Vermeer]

I have not taken Shawns list with unit dientification on the 50, but just looked for them in both volumes of Patzwall/Scherzer:

- Agtha Egon Hptm Luftgaukdo III 1945
Patzwall/Scherzer Volume I: Hautpmann d.R., Führer Sprengkommando in LG III, 19.01.1945
- Block van Eberhard Oblt. 3./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 9 24.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Claussen Joachim Major i.G. LXXVI.Pz.Korps 28.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Dürsch Wilhelm Hptm. 2./Pz.AR FGD .4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Emmenthal Karl Oberst 32.lnf.Div. 7.5.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Enders R. Oblt. Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
Is actualli Rudolf Ender in Patzwall Volume II
- Fink Karl-Heinz Oblt. Pz.Gren.Rgt. 113
In Patzwall/Scherzer Volume II, Leutnant, I. / Panzergrenadier-Regiment 113, 18.05.1945
- Förderer Ofw. Pi.Btl.205 8.9.1944
Is in Volume II, Alfons, same data.
- Foltin Friedrich Uffz. 320. Inf.Div. 17.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Forbeck Rudolf Owm. He.Stu.G.Brig.236 20.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Giebler O. Ofw. Pz.Rgt.1
Giebler Otto is IN P/S volume II as Oberfeldwebel, 2. / Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 37 dd 24.12.1941
- Glöser Otto Oblt I./Pz.Gren.Rgt.33 25.3.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Haake Heinrich Major d.Res. I./Pz.AR FGD .4.1945
Ther is a Heinrich Haake in P/S II, but with very different data.
- Hardt Anton Oblt. II./Gren.Rgt.502 20.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Hermani August Obstlt.i.G. Op.Abt.Heer 3.5.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Heygendorff von Gen.Major OKH 1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Hutter Oblt. Pz.Rgt.1 1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Inkmann August Uffz. Inf.Rgt.199 6.2.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Jagemann Karl Ofw. Pz.Rgt.
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Jahn Hptm.d.Res. Art.Rgt.16
Is Walther Jahn as in P/S Volume II, 24.07.1943
- Job Eduard Uffz. 3/Pz.Jg.Lehr-Abt.1-30 1.3.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Kallfelz Karl-Heinz Oblt. 2./Pz.Abt.508 1.5.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Kempf Karl 1.12.1944
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer with this data
- Kiener Josef Lt. Jg.Rgt.28 21.7.1944
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Kleinert Oblt. Pz.Gren.Rgt.1 1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Knoop Major 1./Gren.Rgt.377 26.7.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Knüpling Ludwig Major He.Stu.Art.Brig.667 4.5.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Lahousen van Erwin Oberst Inf.Rgt.41 20.7.1944
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Mack Fw. Pz.Rgt.1 1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Menedetter Kurt Hptm 4/AR 17 22.3.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Meng S. Uffz. Pz.Gren.Rgt.1
Actually Siegfried Meng, Unteroffizier, 2. / Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 37, 24.05.1942 in P/S Volume II
- Mors Heinz Hptm. 3./Pz.AR FGD 4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Neuer Walther Obstlt. Pz.Rgt.118 29.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Petersen Willy Oblt. 3./Pz.Abt.44
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Pfeil Karl Oberst Art.Rgt.290 20.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Platen von J. Lt. Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1
Joachim von Platen P/S volume II, Leutnant, 1. / Panzergrenadier-Regiment 113, 18.03.1943
- Rader Alois Hptm. Inf.Rgt.199 5.2.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Ried Franz Oblt. Inf.Rgt.61 4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Rinke A. Ofw. Pz.Gren.Rgt.1
Alois Rinke in P/S volume II, Oberfeldwebel, 4. / SR 113, 13.05.1942
- Seebach Frh.von Oblt. Pz.Gren.Rgt.1 1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Seemann Lt.d.Res. Pz.Rgt.203 1942
Volgens P/S Volume II; Willibald Seemann, Leutnant, 1. / Panzer-Regiment 203, 21.12.1942
- Schäfer G. Ofw. Pz.Rgt.1
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Schneller Albert Ob It. Inf.Rgt.61 4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Schwamberger Otto Major 2.Geb.Div. 3.5.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Schwarz Oblt. Pz.Gren.Rgt.113 1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Ströder Klaus Hptm Kdo.d.Pz.-Lehrg. 12.3.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Sunkel Kurt Major 1./lnf.Rgt.107 20.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Varnholt Otto Oblt. 1./Pz.Pi.Btl.675 11.4.1945
Not in Patzwall/Scherzer
- Weimar Hptm. Pz.Art.Rgt.73 1945
Ther is a Georg Weimar, Hauptmann, 2. / Pionier-Bataillon 72, 04.02.1944 in P/S, Volume II
- Wietersheim von W. Obstlt. Pz.Gren.Rgt.113
There is a Wend von Wietersheim, Oberstleutnant, Kradschützen-Bataillon 1, 24.12.1941 in Volume II