General der Artillerie z.V. Oskar Vogl (1881-1954)

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kerfent
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General der Artillerie z.V. Oskar Vogl (1881-1954)

#1

Post by kerfent » 25 Nov 2004, 12:10

Hi all,
I´m new here but from what I´ve seen so far this seems to be the perfect place to help me with something that has buggered me for quite some time. I´m doing some research for a future book about some combat along the Maginot Line in 1940, especially on the area of Faulquemont. The German division attacking there was the 167. ID commanded by Generalleutnant (of the Artillery) Oskar Vogl. He is mentionend in the divisions staff lists as "Generalleutnant a.D z.V". ad. should be "ausser Dienst" (retired) the meaning of "z.V" I do not know. I was hoping someone here might help me out with some biographical information on General Vogl and if he was really retired when he commanded the 167.ID. I have no idea if this is possible at all. I´m also looking on some general biografical info. Up to know all I could find (and that was here in this great forum) is: Gen. d. Art. Oskar Vogl: born 1881 ,died 3 Feb 1954. And from the divisions papers I have learned that he got his promotion to Generalleutnant in 1931 and that he was assigned to the "Waffenstillstandskommission" on August,1 1940. Unfortunately thats all.

So if anybody can help me with some more info on him and the question if a retired general can command an active unit I´d certainly appreciate it!

Thank you very much!

Best Regards,
Martin

(btw:Kerfent is an ouvrage of the Maginot Line captured by the 167.ID)

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VJK
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#2

Post by VJK » 25 Nov 2004, 13:11

Hi Martin!

Welcome to the Forum! This is indeed a perfect place for clarifying so many questions and I hope you will enjoy the Forum.

You will find a brief bio of Oskar Vogl at this site:

http://www.feldgrau.com/search-officers2.php?ID=2144

Here also is a pic of Vogl.

Regards,

VJK
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kerfent
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#3

Post by kerfent » 25 Nov 2004, 13:43

Hi VJK,
thank you for your reply!
Indeed it seems I found the right place. Thank you very much for the link to feldgrau. It seems some information there is wrong like this "Insp.H.Kontroll Insp 1.5.40", as he was still in command of the 167.ID at least until end of June, and most likely until begin of August, but otherwise it already helps me to get further in my research. It seems he really quit the service in 1931, so he was a General a.D. But if an a.D. comes back to work he´s still a.D?

Regards,
Martin

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JPK
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#4

Post by JPK » 25 Nov 2004, 14:37

Bonjour



You have to try also "Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research " on this forum.
VOGL, Oskar
(1881 - 1954)
General der Artillerie:
Born: 29. Apr. 1881 in München.
Died: 1954 in Irschenhausen.
Promotions:
General der Artillerie: 1. Apr. 1941
Charakter als Generalleutnant: 30. Nov. 1931
Generalmajor: 1. Apr. 1931........


Regards

JPK


BTW :Do you know this book by Roger Bruge "On a livré la ligne maginot" Ed Fayart 1975,?
Many pages about the Kerfent ,German and French side

JPK

kerfent
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#5

Post by kerfent » 25 Nov 2004, 15:25

Bonjour JPK,
thank you for your answer!
The "Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research" thats the one with the 16$ or so via pay-pal? I have no account at pay-pal so I´m not sure if I should use it.

Indeed I do know the work of Roger Bruge. I think he made a great job back then and I still hope to get in touch with him some day. I hope that my book will be able to highlight a couple of things that Bruge did not consider as important. I will put more focus on military and technical details of the Maginot line in the secteur fortifie de Faulquemont.

A+
Martin

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JPK
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#6

Post by JPK » 25 Nov 2004, 15:31

Rebonjour Kerfent



http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRM ... sHeer.html

It is free of course if you can't get it I make you a copy.

JPK

kerfent
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#7

Post by kerfent » 25 Nov 2004, 15:47

Hi JPK,
I´m sorry! My mistake. I thought you meant the "Axis Biographical Research Services" from Michael Miller.

Thank you for the link, thats a lot of information!
Unfortunately it also contains the impossibility of his assigment away from the 167.ID in May 1940. The last document I found signed for the 167.ID by Vogl is from end of July. And the divisions papers themself state his transferral to the Waffenstillstandskommision" for the 01.08.1940.
But it confirms his resignation date end of 1931. The mystery deepens.

Regards,
Martin

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genstab
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Gen.Vogl

#8

Post by genstab » 26 Nov 2004, 16:40

Gentlemen:
This is how I underwstand it from past reading on the subject; a real expert can correct any part I have wrong:
When an officer retires the designation "a.D." is carried after his name ("ausser Dienst" meaning retired). But if again called to active duty he uses "z.V." (zur Verwendung" or (available) "for duty", signifying that he was retired but has been recalled. Both designations aren't supposed to be used at the same time.
Likewise, an officer given a retirement promotion will have the designation "Char." for Charakterisiert used with his rank to indicate that it wasn't held on active duty but was honorary. If recalled to active duty he will continue using this designation (sort of like a US/British Army brevet promotion) until such time as he is confirmed in the active duty rank, whereupon he will use z.V. with it. If he is promoted to a higher rank while still on active duty he will also continue to use z.V. with it to show he was a retired officer recalled to active service. Upon again retiring he regfverts to using a.D. again. Normally he keeps the higher rank attained on active duty.

Best regards,
Genstab

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genstab
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Gen.Vogl

#9

Post by genstab » 26 Nov 2004, 16:41

Gentlemen:
This is how I underwstand it from past reading on the subject; a real expert can correct any part I have wrong:
When an officer retires the designation "a.D." is carried after his name ("ausser Dienst" meaning retired). But if again called to active duty he uses "z.V." (zur Verwendung" or (available) "for duty", signifying that he was retired but has been recalled. Both designations aren't supposed to be used at the same time.
Likewise, an officer given a retirement promotion will have the designation "Char." for Charakterisiert used with his rank to indicate that it wasn't held on active duty but was honorary. If recalled to active duty he will continue using this designation (sort of like a US/British Army brevet promotion) until such time as he is confirmed in the active duty rank, whereupon he will use z.V. with it (sometimes this can happen immediately with senior generals as with GenOb Kurt Hammerstein when called up to head Armee Abt. A in September 1939). If he is promoted to a higher rank while still on active duty he will also continue to use z.V. with it to show he was a retired officer recalled to active service. Upon again retiring he regfverts to using a.D. again. Normally he keeps the higher rank attained on active duty.

Best regards,
Genstab

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genstab
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Gen.Vogl

#10

Post by genstab » 26 Nov 2004, 16:43

Gentlemen:
This is how I underwstand it from past reading on the subject; a real expert can correct any part I have wrong:
When an officer retires the designation "a.D." is carried after his name ("ausser Dienst" meaning retired). But if again called to active duty he uses "z.V." (zur Verwendung" or (available) "for duty", signifying that he was retired but has been recalled. Both designations aren't supposed to be used at the same time.
Likewise, an officer given a retirement promotion will have the designation "Char." for Charakterisiert used with his rank to indicate that it wasn't held on active duty but was honorary (though this temporary promotion can also be given active duty officers who weren't retired). If recalled to active duty he may continue using this designation (sort of like a US/British Army brevet promotion) until such time as he is confirmed in the active duty rank, whereupon he will use z.V. with it (sometimes this can happen immediately with senior generals as with GenOb Kurt Hammerstein when called up to head Armee Abt. A in September 1939). If he is promoted to a higher rank while still on active duty he will also continue to use z.V. with it to show he was a retired officer recalled to active service. Upon again retiring he regfverts to using a.D. again. Normally he keeps the higher rank attained on active duty.

Best regards,
Genstab

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#11

Post by kerfent » 29 Nov 2004, 17:19

Hi genstab,
thank you for your insights!

All I can say that in the divisional papers a.D. and z.V are used together. I think your remarks about that make sense, so its probably a mistake by some staff member who wrote the document. In a time where no possibility to erase typed errors existed it must have been a temptation to work with a certain amout of typos before you started typing everything again.

So he should have been char and a.D. before he came back. Char and z.V. while on duty. Good to know.
Too bad that was not used in this case.

Thank you!
Martin

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askropp
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Re: Looking for information on General Oskar Vogl

#12

Post by askropp » 19 Dec 2014, 23:16

Can somebody give the date of Vogl's promotion to GL z.V. and his RDA as GM?
There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.

histan
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Re: Looking for information on General Oskar Vogl

#13

Post by histan » 20 Dec 2014, 11:29

GM 01.01.1934 (4)
GL zV 01.09.1939

Source NARA T-78 R-894

Regards

John

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Re: Looking for information on General Oskar Vogl

#14

Post by askropp » 20 Dec 2014, 15:11

I cherish the official records, but there must be something wrong with that. Vogl was promoted to GM in 1931 and retired the same year with the Charakter als GL. I know of no service during 1934 or any year before WW2. Also, I know that he was placed z.V. on 01.09.1939, but did he really get a Patent als GL on that date? All other generals I know of began their war service as Char. GL z.V. and became full GL later.
There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.

histan
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Re: Looking for information on General Oskar Vogl

#15

Post by histan » 20 Dec 2014, 18:05

Sorry - my typo!

Should have been GM 01.04.1931 (4)

char GL 30.11.1931

card says he became zV 01.07.1938 so he would have been char GL zV on that date as you suggest.

Regards

John

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