armored/tank/panzer divsion organization 1944-45

[Kelvin]

Hi, armor was the spearhead of offensive and also fire brigade of defensive. Germany and Allies all had their armored divison organization and mostly comprised three component : tank troops, infantry and artillery plus some service and support troop: During 1944-45 all their unit became more mature than in 1939 or 1941.

German panzer divison manpower about 12000 men. Normally she had one panzer regiment ( 50-80 tanks) with two tank battalions ( one panther and one PzIV , two panzergrenadier regiments with two infantry battalions each ( total four, one with APC) and one artillery regiment (54 howizer/gun) with three battalion including one SP battalion plus one one recce battalion, one panzejager battalion (antitank) with towed Pak 40 and Jagdpanzer/StuG, signal btn, engineer btn, AA battalion and service support troop such as maintenance and material support.

Russian Tank Corps had about 10900 men. Normally she had three tank brigades (65 T- 34 tank each) with three tank companies and one infantry battalion, one motorized infantry brigades. Her artillery support included 76 mm gun and 120 mm mortar in tank brigades and motorized brigades and one 76mm gun regiment (24 pieces) , one 45mm antitank battalion and 120mm mortar regiment (36 mortars) and multiple rocket battalion (8 launchers) plus three SP regiment ( assault gun/tank destroyer), recce battalion, AA regiment (btn with 16 37mm gun),enginner btn and support troop

British armoured division had about 14000 men, She had one armoured brigade with three tank battalions and one lorried infantry battalion, one lorried infantry brigade with three infantry battalions, two artillery regiment (btn) with one SP (24 pieces Sexton ) and one towed gun (24 x 25 pdr) plus one antitank regiment (btn) with 32 x 17 pdr and 16 x 6 pdr antitank guns, one AA regiment (btn) with 54 x 40mm bofor gun, plus an armoured regiment (btn), two engineer companies and one field park coy, signal troop and support troops

US armored division had around 10900 men : she had three tank battalion with 53 sherman and 17 light M -5 tanks, three armored infantry battalion equipped with APC or half tracks, three SP battalions with each M-7 SP gun plus engineer btn, recce sqn,signal btn, and other support troops.

For organization only, if full strength, (except German division, all Russian, US and British was nearly fully strength), which one is better organization ? Of course you can discuss Japanese tank division too as she had four tank divisions in 1944. and Free France , she had one armoured division but I don't remember she organize herself or just copied US or English though all her equipment was Amercian.

[Kingfish]

German panzer divison manpower about 12000 men. Normally she had one panzer regiment ( 50-80 tanks) with two tank battalions ( one panther and one PzIV , two panzergrenadier regiments with two infantry battalions each ( total four, one with APC) and one artillery regiment (54 howizer/gun) with three battalion including one SP battalion plus one one recce battalion, one panzejager battalion (antitank) with towed Pak 40 and Jagdpanzer/StuG, signal btn, engineer btn, AA battalion and service support troop such as maintenance and material support.

This was a standard Heer TO&E for 1944, and there were many exceptions. For instance, a few had two armored PzGr battalions, as were all four of Panzer Lehr's infantry battalions, plus its pioneers. 21st Panzer had no Panthers in its OOB, but did include an assault gun battalion. The Waffen SS Panzer Divisions had 6 infantry battalions.

US armored division had around 10900 men : she had three tank battalion with 53 sherman and 17 light M -5 tanks, three armored infantry battalion equipped with APC or half tracks, three SP battalions with each M-7 SP gun plus engineer btn, recce sqn,signal btn, and other support troops.

Two of the US Armored divisions (2nd and 3rd) retained their 1942 OOB, with 4 medium and 2 light tank battalions.

For organization only, if full strength, (except German division, all Russian, US and British was nearly fully strength), which one is better organization ? Of course you can discuss Japanese tank division too as she had four tank divisions in 1944. and Free France , she had one armoured division but I don't remember she organize herself or just copied US or English though all her equipment was Amercian.

The French 2nd Armored Division retained the US TO&E and was equipped with US equipment.
The Canadian 4th and 5th and Polish 1st were similar to the British armored division both in organization and equipment. The same is true of the 6th South African, although they had an extra infantry brigade.

[C.GILLONO]

The re-born French Army had 3 armoured divisions (DB division blindée)
1e and 5e fought under de Lattre in his 1e armée française (a part of 6th Army Group with US 7th Army).
2e was a rather free-lance unit that fought most of the time under 1st-3rd and principally 7th Army.

All were based on US TOEs because they got their equipment through Lend-Lease from US sources
The Combat Commands were called Groupements tactiques in the 2e DB and a 4th one was created just before the dash to Paris late August 1944.

The 2 other DB used "regular" CCs - they were called CC1 to 3 in 1e DB, and CC4 to 6 in 5e DB. The 2 DBs rarely fought as units, the CCs were usually sent to bloster French infantry divisions.

HTH

[Kelvin]

hI Kingfish, 21st Panzer Divsion did not have panther until Nov 1944. From then on, she had a Panther abteilung. She also had two armored infantry battalion (PG abteilung) in June 1944 , so did 2nd Panzer divison in the same period.

[Kingfish]

hI Kingfish, 21st Panzer Divsion did not have panther until Nov 1944. From then on, she had a Panther abteilung. She also had two armored infantry battalion (PG abteilung) in June 1944 , so did 2nd Panzer divison in the same period.

Correct. Keeping to the same time period, 10th SS Panzer did not have a Panther battalion but a mixed (and weak) panzer battalion composed of Mark IVs and StuGs. Both 2nd Pz and Pz Lehr had an attached Funklenk Abteilung. The list goes on.

BTW, the British armored brigade included a motor battalion, not lorried as with the other 3 infantry battalions. The motor battalion, despite it's title, was actually the mechanized infantry component of the division, being transported in halftracks, scout cars and carriers.

[Kelvin]

Thank for your correction, but British armoured division only had one armoured infantry battalion and was much inferior to US armored divison which had three armored infantry battalions.

[RichTO90]

Thank for your correction, but British armoured division only had one armoured infantry battalion and was much inferior to US armored divison which had three armored infantry battalions.

Doubtful, since the vehicles were transports, not AIFV, and considering the US Armored Division was always woefully deficient in infantry. The additional infantry battalion, regardless of how it got into battle, was more important and was one of the items always coming up in organizational discussions during the war and in the General Board postwar.

[ranoncles]

There are several mistakes in the original posting on the different armoured divisions.

For instance, a British armoured division after 1942 indeed had 3 armoured battalions (or regiments as they were called). It added a fourth "armoured" battalion in 1944 as its recconnaissance battalion switched from armoured cars to tanks, bolstering combat power but severely weakening its recon ability. The armoured brigade included a mechanized infantry battalion mounted in American half-tracks. Ideally meant to support armoured operations, it was often used to protect the tank units instead as had been common doctrine in 1939-1941. The motor brigade had 3 infantry battalions mounted in trucks.

Many British and Commonwealth divisions formed mixed battle groups out of the divisional assets, much like the Germans did with their battle groups but the British never were able to make it work properly.

[Simon K]

There was a lack of cohesion with the inf element of British armoured divs.
infantry formations saw the regiment as their natural "homes" not the div as a whole.
This created particular problems in the Gds Armoured Div during the Normandy campaign.
The British regimental system does not assist the cohesion of the army if the army reaches a certain size.

[Kelvin]

Thank for your correction, but British armoured division only had one armoured infantry battalion and was much inferior to US armored divison which had three armored infantry battalions.

Doubtful, since the vehicles were transports, not AIFV, and considering the US Armored Division was always woefully deficient in infantry. The additional infantry battalion, regardless of how it got into battle, was more important and was one of the items always coming up in organizational discussions during the war and in the General Board postwar.

But why US was deficient in infantry ? She had a population of 130 million in that period. US only had 16 armored divisions so she only need to provide 48 armored infantry battalions. Each only had 1,001 men. Only 48,000 men armored infantry.

In total, German had fewer armored infantry battalion than US . For example in June 1944. 1, 3, 4, 5, 6,7,8,9,11,12,13,14,16,17,19,20,23,24,25,26,116.Heer Panzer division each had one panzergrenadier battalion with SPW out of its four infantry battalions. Heer 2 and 21 Pz division had two SPW equipped panzergrenadier battalion. Heer Pz Lehr division had four such battalions. Waffen SS Panzer divisions : 1.SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 2 SS Das Reich, 3 SS Totenkopf, 5.SS Wiking, 9 SS Hohenstaufen, 10 SS Frundsberg and 12 SS Hitlerjugend each had one armored infantry battalion out of six infantry battalions. Luftwaffe Hermann Göring Fallschirm-Panzer division also had one armored infantry battalion out of its six infantry battalion. Total 32 Panzer divisions had 37 panzergrenadier battalion equipped with SPW. And plus one from Großdeutschland PanzerGrenadier Division.

While in June 1944, British only had seven motor battalions equipped with APC : each one from, 1st , 6th, 7th,9th, 10th 11th and Guards armoured divisions. But British 10th armoured division was disbanded on June 15 1944.

Commonwealth : In June 1944,Canadian 4th and 5th armoured division each had one motor battalions. South African 6th armoured division had one motor battalion. Australian 1st armoured division had one motor battalion. Indian 31st armoured division had one motor battalion. Total 12 for Britain and her commonwealth in June 1944.

I don't know 26 Soviet tank and 11 Mech Corps had any armored infantry battalion or not though she received several thousand US M-3 half-tracks. Also Japanese had three tank divisions in June 1944 , I don't hear she had any APC for infantry.

[RichTO90]

But why US was deficient in infantry ? She had a population of 130 million in that period. US only had 16 armored divisions so she only need to provide 48 armored infantry battalions. Each only had 1,001 men. Only 48,000 men armored infantry.

Your are confusing two different subjects, manpower and organization. The original question was regarding the organization of the divisions, which was a doctrinal issue. You are now raising a question about national manpower issues, which is a completely different thing.