Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
rossmcpharter
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 16:44

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#16

Post by rossmcpharter » 16 Sep 2014, 20:04

According to 'Hitlers Last General' the Western Allies were definitely after Mohnke due to Wormhoudt, Normandy and don't forget Malmedy, he was Peipers CO there, so guilty like Sepp Dietrich etc under the Chain of command principle. Sorry not to mention sooner but great posts and info Jkeenan.

Don't forget as well there were still POW survivors alive from Wormhoudt and Normandy who may have still been able to ID him as the shouting and very angry officer.

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 3211
Joined: 01 May 2006, 20:52
Location: UK

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#17

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Sep 2014, 20:39

While there is much about this conversation which stretches my incredulity, especially as it was relayed by KM, there did appear to have been a halt after this date (9th of June) to the large scale murder of POWs - the majority of incidents having taken place on the 7th, 8th and 9th of June.
Were there any more large scale captures of Canadian or British POWs by 12 SS PZ Div in Normandy after this? I can imagine the news circulating amongst the Allies that capture was thought likely to lead to execution would lead to a greater reluctance to surrender?

Cheers

Tom


User avatar
seaburn
Member
Posts: 969
Joined: 11 Apr 2013, 12:03
Location: Europe

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#18

Post by seaburn » 16 Sep 2014, 22:57

Hi 'RMP' there are a number of files in Kew on the Wormhoudt investigation - It would be worth a look at to see what info the British had on Mohnke and how culpable they felt he personally was. I have only seen Max Wünsche's interrogation on the matter and he denied all knowledge of the incident due to him being pinned down in a ditch for the duration of the day.

'Tom F.C.' I attach the listing from TS26/856 of the total of unlawful deaths that were determined at that time - this was added to later, but you get a flavour of the peaking of the numbers at the start. When the news circulated about the killings it must have led to reprisals and a series of tit for tat actions from both sides, therefore you would assume that the numbers would go up rather than down. Speculation as to why this happened is going 'off topic' from the original post, but I think such a discussion would be worthy of a thread in itself.
TS_26_856_0022.jpg
TS26/856-22

j keenan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1575
Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 12:22
Location: North

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#19

Post by j keenan » 16 Sep 2014, 23:06

The file on Mohnke and others for the Wormhoudt Massacre is a United Nations War Crimes Case Number (128/UK/G/28)as the British Government had found prima facie evidence.The two Wormhoudt Inquiry Reports were judged by the British Government to be under the official secrets act till 1.1.2021.So we will after to wait a bit longer ?

User avatar
seaburn
Member
Posts: 969
Joined: 11 Apr 2013, 12:03
Location: Europe

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#20

Post by seaburn » 16 Sep 2014, 23:14

j keenan wrote:The file on Mohnke and others for the Wormhoudt Massacre is a United Nations War Crimes Case Number (128/UK/G/28)as the British Government had found prima facie evidence.The two Wormhoudt Inquiry Reports were judged by the British Government to be under the official secrets act till 1.1.2021.So we will after to wait a bit longer ?
2021 8O I wonder why ? This one seems to be available :

Reference: TS 26/206
Description: Wormhoudt: mass murder
Date: 1939-1945
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department Charge Number UK- G/B28
Legal status: Public Record

And there are others when you search under 'Wormhoudt' - so, not sure what's in the one that is still sealed.

j keenan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1575
Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 12:22
Location: North

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#21

Post by j keenan » 16 Sep 2014, 23:34

seaburn wrote:Hi 'RMP' there are a number of files in Kew on the Wormhoudt investigation - It would be worth a look at to see what info the British had on Mohnke and how culpable they felt he personally was. I have only seen Max Wünsche's interrogation on the matter and he denied all knowledge of the incident due to him being pinned down in a ditch for the duration of the day.

'Tom F.C.' I attach the listing from TS26/856 of the total of unlawful deaths that were determined at that time - this was added to later, but you get a flavour of the peaking of the numbers at the start. When the news circulated about the killings it must have led to reprisals and a series of tit for tat actions from both sides, therefore you would assume that the numbers would go up rather than down. Speculation as to why this happened is going 'off topic' from the original post, but I think such a discussion would be worthy of a thread in itself.
TS_26_856_0022.jpg
There was a lull in the fighting during which the allies leafleted the 12-SS about the crimes so that maybe made them think ? Also after that the 12-SS was on the defensive,as of August 22nd they had lost 8,000 dead,w.i.a. or missing, would be interesting to know how many pows the Canadians took.

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 3211
Joined: 01 May 2006, 20:52
Location: UK

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#22

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 17 Sep 2014, 21:21

Seaburn,

Thanks for the document page - the pattern of killing matches very closely to the totals of fatal casualties listed in Copp's 'Fields of Fire": 359 (6th June), 156 (7th June, etc), 174, 132, 43, 153, 16, 13, 7, 5, 8, 18, 18, 7, 3, 4, etc. Which suggests that the intensity of fighting dropped off and therefore so would the numbers of Canadians captured.

As for the number of 12 SS Pz Div POWs taken by the Canadians - the same source gives a total of 206 from 8 to 23 August 44.

Cheers

Tom

rossmcpharter
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 16:44

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#23

Post by rossmcpharter » 18 Sep 2014, 08:58

Cheers Tom, Do you or anybody else have figures for 12 HJ Pz Div POWs for June and July?

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 3211
Joined: 01 May 2006, 20:52
Location: UK

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#24

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 18 Sep 2014, 23:18

Sorry, those are the only figures I've seen, thet are taken from 2 Canadian Corps Intelligence Summaries. Perhaps the 1 Corps Int Sums from the earlier period might help?

Cheers

Tom

User avatar
Harro
Member
Posts: 3233
Joined: 19 May 2005, 19:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#25

Post by Harro » 19 Sep 2014, 07:44

Is known why Siebken was made commander of Feldersatzbrigade 501 and Ausbildungs-und-Ersatzbataillon 12 in autumn of 1944?

j keenan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1575
Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 12:22
Location: North

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#26

Post by j keenan » 19 Sep 2014, 09:38

Siebken assessment 2.44
Siebken is a serious and purposeful character, whose noble nature makes him popular with superiors and subordinates. His knowledge and services are good. Special mention should be his great diligence and his thoroughness in the education of his battalion.

j keenan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1575
Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 12:22
Location: North

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#27

Post by j keenan » 19 Sep 2014, 10:03

Harro wrote:Is known why Siebken was made commander of Feldersatzbrigade 501 and Ausbildungs-und-Ersatzbataillon 12 in autumn of 1944?
Not sure maybe coming back from injuries ? Or avoiding Mohnke maybe ?

rossmcpharter
Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 16:44

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#28

Post by rossmcpharter » 19 Sep 2014, 18:51

Hadn't Mohnke replaced Wisch as LAH commander by Autumn 44?

j keenan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1575
Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 12:22
Location: North

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#29

Post by j keenan » 19 Sep 2014, 19:08

Mohnke 30.8.44-1.45 LAH commander
Siebken commander SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.2 2.45

User avatar
krichter33
Member
Posts: 843
Joined: 22 Mar 2003, 12:37
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Bernhard Siebken - 9 June 1944

#30

Post by krichter33 » 20 Sep 2014, 01:51

thanks for the Siebken assessment!

Post Reply

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”