Division Nr. 189 ?

[CNE503]

And was unresolved at this time yet... It is difficult to learn more about this division or its hypothetical commander. Except NARA or BA-MA, I don't think that a solution exists to this problem...

Cheers,

CNE503

[Christoph Awender]

Hello,

Interesting "mystery". I think all (or the lack of) evidence points to the fact that the Div.Nr.189 did not exist that early. No personnel files I have list this Bauer but the issue is in my memory and I am sure some time information which helps shows up.

/Christoph

[CNE503]

Hello Christoph,

I'm sure that this case will be solved. I just hope that we heard about it soon!
I also think that this replacement division wasn't active this early, otherwise we should have found some pieces of information from its hypothetical subunits (the replacement regiments and battalions which should have been subordinated to it whether the division had been active).

Cheers,

CNE503

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi CNE503,

I am not sure there is much of a case to solve.

1) We have no primary sources.

2) We have a purported commander who is untraceable .

3) We have no trace of any sub-units.

The same is true of every non-existent division we may care to invent and not true of any division we know actually existed.

Thus, pragmaticaly, I would suggest we should treat this not as an unsolved case, but as no case at all.

Cheers,

Sid

[CNE503]

Dear Sid,

You're not wrong at all, of course, but some elements lead me to think that it is a little bit more complicated than that.

For instance, should the 189. Reserve Division have been created ex nihilo late September 1942, it would have been the only one to do so. Although it is clearly possible, I like to check this sort of special cases, of rare occurrences, which are few in the German army and have always clear purposes that I can't identify there. So, there is a possibility that a Division Nr.189 was created before (but not so early as October 1939), isn't it?

Concerning the subunits: I couldn't trace them exploring lexikonderwehrmacht. But the Lexikon is largely based upon Tessin's works, and Tessin could genuinely have suppress some elements specifically linked to a division that didn't exist for him. To be comprehensive on this matter, we should check on primary sources from Wehrkreis IX replacement units to be sure.

Concerning Generalmajor zV Paul Bauer, we know for sure that he had existed and served in the German army at this time. His service as a commander for a division from late October 1939 can be a typo for another unit, it can be explained for a variety of reasons, but it is another piece in this puzzle. If someone could check his personal records or files, it would help us to close the case definitively - in one direction or another.

Cheers,

CNE503

[Radar]

Hallo,
This information is from "Hitlers Legions, The German Army Order of <battle, World War II" from Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr. ISBN 0-8128-2992-1

COMPOSITION (1944):
1212th Grenadier Regiment, 1213th Grenadier Regiment. 1214th, Grenadier Regiment, 1089th Artillery Regiment, 1089th
Füsilier Battalion, 1089th Anti-Tank Battalion, I089th Engineer Battalion, 1089th Signal Battalion

HOME STATION: Kassel. Wkr. IX

This division was born as Replacement Division Staff 189 in the fall of 1939. It conducted training operations in Thuringia until the later part of
1942, when it was upgraded to reserve division status and was sent to France with the 15th and 2I4th Reserve Grenadier Regiments. It also absorbed 28th Reserve Grenadier Regiment and die 28th Reserve Artillery Battalion from Wehrkreis VIII but lost its replacement units. In November it took part in the occupation of Vichy France and headquartered in die Clermont- Ferrand area for some time. In the spring of 1944 it was transferred to southwestern France, where it formed part of Army Group G's reserve. After D-Day the I89th Division ceased training altogether altogether and was involved in combat in southern France by August. During the retreat to Germany it was upgraded to full field division status, although it was never considered a First-rate combat unit. By late 1941 it was fighting in southern Alsace and was in the Colmar bridgehead by Januare 1945. It is unclear whether or not any sizable parts of the 189th escaped the bridgehead’s collapse but the division headquarters did and was sent to Oberhein to rebuild the remnants. Sometime after March 1st it returned to action in southern Germany and was still fighting against the Americans when the war ended. Commanders of the 189th Reserve/ Infantry included Major General von Neindortl (1945). Lieutenant General Poppe (early 1944), Major General Count Bogislav von Schwerin (1944). Major General Degener (1944). Major General Franz Bauer (1944-45), and Colonel Eduard Zorn (1945).

NOTES AND SOURCES: Lieutenant General Poppe, formerly commander of the 255th and 217th Infantry Divisions in Russia (1942-43),later led the
59th Infantry Division on the Western Front. Degener, the former Commander of Würzburg. led a battle group in southern France in 1944 and commanded the 189th only on a temporary basis in November 1944. Zorn, the Chief Supply Officer of 19th Army, replaced Bauer after Colmar.


radar

[CNE503]

Well, I guess that Samuel Mitcham used Keilig and Mehner as a source, and I doubt that he had primary sources concerning a Division Nr.189 when he wrote this entry. So we are at the exact same point: are there primary sources concerning a Division Nr.189 in Wehrkreis IX history between October 1939 and September 1942? Is there any direct evidence in Generalmajor zV Paul Bauer career of him taking command of such a division between October 1939 and April 1941? Were the Wehrkreis IX replacement units subordinated at some time between Autumn 1939 and Autumn 1942 to a Division Nr.189?

Thanks for sharing it anyway!

Cheers,

CNE503

[histan]

The sections in "Das Deutsche Heer" covering the Ersatzheer were produced by Generalleutnant aD Detmering. He didn't just "make it up", he used primary sources, as did Mehner (he says so!), including at least one Stellenbesetzung.

The fact that no one on this forum has seen any of these sources does not mean that they do not exist.

I believe that Mehner had his doubts about the existence of this division and that Tessin had even bigger doubts, because he doesn't mention it at all. Keilig, himself, in "Die General des Heeres" does not list DN 189 as a command of GM zV Paul Bauer (he has a gap between 1939 and 1941)

I know that there are mistakes in primary sources, certainly in some of the Stellenbestetzung of which I have copies. My assessment is that it is likely the sources seen by Mehner and Detmering either contain mistakes or were perhaps plans that were superseded or changed. Without knowing what they are its impossible to say.

Until someone produces the sources used by Detmering and Mehner we can not say whether the DN 189 did or did exist -the case is, as they say in Scotland, "not proven".

Regards

John

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Radar & Histan,

Mitcham's book, which is several decades old, is limited and unreliable, because it was apparently largely based on necessarily questionable wartime US reports and post-war debriefings and on post-war English-language publications. Little or none of the information in it seems to come from primary sources. In the absence of competition, it may have been a useful English-language beginner's starter guide in the mid-1980s, but I wouldn't rely on it much now.

In Scotland, as elsewhere, a case only gets to court if there is sufficient evidence. Only then may a "Not Proven" verdict be handed down.

At the moment, I would suggest, there is insufficient evidence to get to court in the case of Division Nr. 189.

Cheers,

Sid.

[histan]

Hi sid

There is this from NARA under records for 189 Res Div

"la, Ic, Ib, Ila/IIb, IVa-b, III, TB. Activity report of the operations branch concerning re designation of Division Nr. 1§9 as the 189.Reserve-Division in
Friedberg, Hessen, Wehrkreis IX, 21 Sep 1942; transfer to Saint-Qaentin, Laon, Chateau-Thierry, and Soissons, 1-8 Oct 1942; movement to Beaane, Mirecourt, Langras, Neafchateau, Autun, and Paray-le-Moaial, 25 Oct-5 Nov 1942; designation of reinforced IR 15B as Kampfgruppe Heuther and transfer to the Armeegruppe Felber sector in formerly unoccupied France, 11 Nov 1942, and its redesignation as reinforced IR 15B, 23 Dec 1942; movement to Le Puy, Ales, Billau, Nimes, Rochemaura, Rodez, and Viviers, 7-11 Dec 1942; and occupation duty.
Activity reports of the supply, intelligence, and personnel branches, the medical and administrative officers, and the judge advocate." 1942/09/21-1943/03/31
Item 189. ResD 29840 Roll 1557 Start Frame 1

The NARA archivist who read this document states that it contains information on the re-designation of DN 189 as 189. Res.Div.

Anyone with a spare $125 can get this from NARA, possibly as early as the end of this week. My money is tied up trying to resolve other questions at the moment.

Regards

John

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Histan,

Does that say "re designation of Division Nr. 1§9 as the 189.Reserve-Division".

If so, is the "§" a "5" or an "8"?

Cheers,

Sid.

[histan]

Sorry Sid

Cut and paste from a poor Acrobat file. It does say Division Nr 189.

If it had said Division Nr 159 it would have been" game over"!

There is so much stuff I would like to buy to try to resolve some of these issues but like everyone else I just don't have the money.

Regards

John

[CNE503]

Well, I haven't much more money for the time being, and I hardly read German... But I keep this in mind, because I'm very interesting in solving this "mystery".

Cheers,

CNE503

[Sid Guttridge]

I still think the most likely explanation is the one I suggested earlier. Division Nr.189 perhaps came into real existence only when Division Nr.179 was transferred the motorized arm in early 1942. Division Nr.189 may have replaced it for a few months before being posted to France as 189 Reserve Division later in 1942, at which point its existence is certainly substantiated.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Jan-Hendrik]

A pity....the Ersatzheer-bible by Scherzer is in my stock...but I do not have it at hand.

Jan-Hendrik