Sinking a Panzer-Division
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
The Podzun-Pallas-Verlag history of 2. PD has 4 pages of pictures of the loading and of the sinking of these two ships and while it doesn't say exactly what the equipment loses were it does say that they were sunk "on their second trip" so perhaps they weren't as bad as they might have been. The book does say that the German dead were buried at Agustoli. Alan
Alan
Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Here is the relevant passage from the RN staff history:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4wNYYkex7A0C
My guess is that the 93 tractors are in fact tanks, since Lexikon der Wehrmacht states that all tanks of Panzerregiment 3 were lost, and the number seems about right for a Panzerregiment after a campaign with some fighting.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /PR3-R.htm
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4wNYYkex7A0C
My guess is that the 93 tractors are in fact tanks, since Lexikon der Wehrmacht states that all tanks of Panzerregiment 3 were lost, and the number seems about right for a Panzerregiment after a campaign with some fighting.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /PR3-R.htm
Nach dem Polenfeldzug verlegte das Regiment an die Westgrenze. Am 10. Mai 1940 bestand es aus 22 Panzer I, 55 Panzer II, 29 Panzer III, 16 Panzer IV und 8 Panzerbefehlswagen. Nach dem Frankreichfeldzug nahm das Regiment am Balkanfeldzug in Griechenland teil. Im Frühsommer 1941 wurden die beiden Kolonnen des Regiments an den Divisions-Nachschubführer 82 abgegeben und bildeten dort die 13. und 14. große Kraftwagen-Kolonne. Im Mai 1941 wurden die Schiffe, mit denen die Panzer vom Balkan an die russische Grenze verlegt werden sollten, versenkt, so dass das Regiment vollkommen neu ausgerüstet werden musste.
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The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
The figures given in that do appear to be rather high for two realatively small freighters, I mean the "680 other vehicles" in particular. Alan
Alan
Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Marburg
645 soldier
61 tanks
140 trucks + trailer
19 motorcycle
Kybfels
683 soldier
61 tanks
100 trucks + trailer
10 motorcycle
AA-Guns 27 (Kybfels + Marburg)
Source: (BAMA RM 109/194; Freiburg)
645 soldier
61 tanks
140 trucks + trailer
19 motorcycle
Kybfels
683 soldier
61 tanks
100 trucks + trailer
10 motorcycle
AA-Guns 27 (Kybfels + Marburg)
Source: (BAMA RM 109/194; Freiburg)
Last edited by mhorgran on 12 Jan 2009, 22:48, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Great!
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
- William Russ
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Hi All,
While scanning microfilm the other day I ran across related documents to the sinking of the two ships in the 12th Army records. There is a report of what happened and two lists of the casualties and equipment losses. I thought it would be good to upload these two pages as they give a breakdown by ship and the number of losses by unit in men and vehicles. It closely follows what mhorgran had previously posted. What I don't see are the tanks. Were they listed separately prehaps?
These pages were taken from microfilm series T-314, roll number 427, frames 8005230 and 8005231.
Just hope someone will find this useful, Bill
While scanning microfilm the other day I ran across related documents to the sinking of the two ships in the 12th Army records. There is a report of what happened and two lists of the casualties and equipment losses. I thought it would be good to upload these two pages as they give a breakdown by ship and the number of losses by unit in men and vehicles. It closely follows what mhorgran had previously posted. What I don't see are the tanks. Were they listed separately prehaps?
These pages were taken from microfilm series T-314, roll number 427, frames 8005230 and 8005231.
Just hope someone will find this useful, Bill
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
William that is brilliant, the Podzun history of 2PD certainly has pictures of Pz II's and III's being lifted onto the ships so you may well be correct and there is a seperate list for them.
Last edited by Alanmccoubrey on 28 May 2009, 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
Alan
- phylo_roadking
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Does the "Pkw." not stand for Panzerkampfwagen...?
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Alan, thanks for that; makes sense, looking at some of the units that "Pkw" losses are attributed to
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Hi Guys,
Well, I guess someone did find this useful .
The only armored vehicles shown as losses are the 10 armored cars with the reconaissance battalion. There is a listing of the Panzer Regiment but it shows no AFVs as losses. I saw an article about this incident years ago in WW II magazine. It gave the losses but I cannot remember if it mentioned tanks being lost. I'll try and find it to clear this up. I would like to know if there were any tanks lost during the transport of the 2. Panzer-Division.
Inquiring minds want to know .
Best regards, Bill
Well, I guess someone did find this useful .
The only armored vehicles shown as losses are the 10 armored cars with the reconaissance battalion. There is a listing of the Panzer Regiment but it shows no AFVs as losses. I saw an article about this incident years ago in WW II magazine. It gave the losses but I cannot remember if it mentioned tanks being lost. I'll try and find it to clear this up. I would like to know if there were any tanks lost during the transport of the 2. Panzer-Division.
Inquiring minds want to know .
Best regards, Bill
Last edited by William Russ on 30 May 2009, 02:08, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Thanks for sharing those pages here Bill . Cheers. Raúl M .
Re: Sinking a Panzer Division
Thanks very much, most interesting.
LC
LC
- William Russ
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Hi Guys,
Your welcome .
Come to think of it, I need to look at the report that was with the above info. It may mention in general what the material losses were. Maybe it will mention the tanks.
Later, Bill
Postscript: Well, this did not take long. I looked out the report and it only mentions personnel losses . I guess I'll have to keep searching.
Your welcome .
Come to think of it, I need to look at the report that was with the above info. It may mention in general what the material losses were. Maybe it will mention the tanks.
Later, Bill
Postscript: Well, this did not take long. I looked out the report and it only mentions personnel losses . I guess I'll have to keep searching.
- William Russ
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Re: Sinking a Panzer-Division
Hi All,
I ordered two of the microfilm rolls for the 2. Panzer-Division that would have the information about losses incurred during this time period. Well, I was throughly disappointed. Little was mentioned about the sinking of the ships. Only a couple of general reports. Maybe someone can find another source for the tank losses for the 2. Panzer-Division?
best regards, Bill
I ordered two of the microfilm rolls for the 2. Panzer-Division that would have the information about losses incurred during this time period. Well, I was throughly disappointed. Little was mentioned about the sinking of the ships. Only a couple of general reports. Maybe someone can find another source for the tank losses for the 2. Panzer-Division?
best regards, Bill