Freikorps and Estonia 1919

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michael mills
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#76

Post by michael mills » 03 Aug 2003, 06:34

Reigo wrote:
The vast majority of Estonians (including politicians, military) considered the German ruling class as the enemy.
The German landowners were hated by 99% of Estonians. There was huge need of land amongst the peasants. The Estonian government promised to take the land from the Germans and give them to the Estonians. This was the driving force of the Estonian Republic - soldiers fought for being in their own state with their land.
The question is, why did the Estonians hate the ethnic German minority, and consider it as the enemy, and was that feeling rational, or rather self-defeating.

No doubt, Reigo, you and other Estonians consider Estonia to be a Western country, quite different from its neighbour Russia. Latvians feel the same way. And from what I have read, and from what I have heard people who have visited the two countries say, both Estonia and Latvia appear very Western in terms of appearance and culture.

But what gave Estonia and Latvia their Western culture and orientation? It was the Germans who settled in those countries and developed them. Without the German settlement, both Estonia and Latvia would have ended up as Eastern countries like Russia, or as quasi-Western countries like Lithuania and Poland.

By expropriating and marginalising the ethnic German minority, the new Estonian and Latvian middle classes effectively destroyed the most Western element in their societies. In a way, they were acting much as Zimbabwe is today.

The most cursory examination of the history of the 19th and 20th centuries shows that the greatest danger to the existence of Estonia and Latvia as countries with a West European culture has come, not from Germany, but from Russia. One needs to think only of the russification policy of the late 19th century, and the brutal sovietisation that occurred after 1940. By contrast, the short German occupations in the First and Second World Wars were far less harmful to the Estonians and Latvians.

If the ultimate choice facing Estonia and Latvia was between German and Russian/Soviet rule, then it can be seen that German rule would have been by far the lesser of two evils.

I think my original point still stands. The Estonian and Latvian ruling classes, through their preoccupation with crushing the ethnic German middle class and seeking to turn it into a propertyless marginalised proletariat, and ignoring the birth of Bolshevik power, except to keep it from their borders, effectively cut their own throats. They destroyed any possibility that they would not eventually be overwhelmed by Soviet power and cut off for 50 years from the connection to the West which the German minority had provided for several centuries. Instead of a friendly German minority, they ended up with a sullen, hostile Russian one.

Perhaps the long Soviet domination of Estonia and Latvia represented a sort of poetic justice for the bad leadership of the native middle classes of those countries, driven by ethnic resentment.

But I would think that the descendants of the Baltic Germans are far happier today living in Germany than they would have been if they had stayed in their former homes.

Reigo
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#77

Post by Reigo » 03 Aug 2003, 13:03

The question is, why did the Estonians hate the ethnic German minority, and consider it as the enemy, and was that feeling rational, or rather self-defeating.
They hated Germans because of the treatment of Estonian peasants by the German ruling class during centuries. During one period (17th-18th century) the peasants were close to slaves. Most of the Germans were happy with this and didn't want any changes. Most of the Germans disliked the "dumb peasants." They had grabbed most of the land.
No doubt, Reigo, you and other Estonians consider Estonia to be a Western country, quite different from its neighbour Russia. Latvians feel the same way. And from what I have read, and from what I have heard people who have visited the two countries say, both Estonia and Latvia appear very Western in terms of appearance and culture.

But what gave Estonia and Latvia their Western culture and orientation? It was the Germans who settled in those countries and developed them. Without the German settlement, both Estonia and Latvia would have ended up as Eastern countries like Russia, or as quasi-Western countries like Lithuania and Poland.
Yes, I probably agree. But you really think that in 1919 the Estonians thought about it? The Germans had been for them oppressors. Now there was a chance for revenge...
By expropriating and marginalising the ethnic German minority, the new Estonian and Latvian middle classes effectively destroyed the most Western element in their societies. In a way, they were acting much as Zimbabwe is today.
Well this element wasn't exactly destroyed. In 1939 there was 16 000 Germans here and mostly they had integrated themselves well into the new society. Besides I think you are somehow simplifying things. Not all the Germans were "great representors of the Western civilization". Like not all Estonians were "dumb peasants".
The most cursory examination of the history of the 19th and 20th centuries shows that the greatest danger to the existence of Estonia and Latvia as countries with a West European culture has come, not from Germany, but from Russia. One needs to think only of the russification policy of the late 19th century, and the brutal sovietisation that occurred after 1940.

By contrast, the short German occupations in the First and Second World Wars were far less harmful to the Estonians and Latvians. If the ultimate choice facing Estonia and Latvia was between German and Russian/Soviet rule, then it can be seen that German rule would have been by far the lesser of two evils.
Maybe that's true, but: a) the German occupation in 1918 wasn't nothing pleasant either b) in 1919 vast majority of Estonians considered Germans worse than Russians (in fact this was also so in 1939 - only one "happy Soviet year" changed this). I repeat: the Estonians weren't clayrvoyants - if they would have been then I am sure they would have given their full support for the destruction of Bolshevism.
I think my original point still stands. The Estonian and Latvian ruling classes, through their preoccupation with crushing the ethnic German middle class...


The German middle class wasn't crushed, it was the high class.
...and seeking to turn it into a propertyless marginalised proletariat, and ignoring the birth of Bolshevik power, except to keep it from their borders, effectively cut their own throats. They destroyed any possibility that they would not eventually be overwhelmed by Soviet power and cut off for 50 years from the connection to the West which the German minority had provided for several centuries. Instead of a friendly German minority, they ended up with a sullen, hostile Russian one.


You are saying this in 2003. In 1919 nobody couldn't see this to come. I think you are very unjust.
Perhaps the long Soviet domination of Estonia and Latvia represented a sort of poetic justice for the bad leadership of the native middle classes of those countries, driven by ethnic resentment.
Maybe. Perhaps the treatment of the Germans by the native middle classes of Estonia and Latvia represented a sort of poetic justice for the bad treatment of the peasants by the Germans?


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commander
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Baltische Landeswehr

#78

Post by commander » 21 Aug 2003, 17:09

Dear colleagues and friends,

I am so much impressed and amazed by the high level of quality and detailed informations about the war in the Baltics which you performed here. Actually it was a hard work to read all posts, but seems there is not much to add anymore. While most posts were (regarding Durand's first message about the battle of Cesis) concerning the Estonian participation, my interest is more focussed on the Latvian side (because Riga is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful cities in Europe).
So permit me one thing to say how the Baltische Landeswehr was formed:

1. "Stoßtrupp" = raiding party, containing two squadrons of infantry, one squadron of cavallry, a machine-gun section and a gun battery

2. Detachment Malmede (three companies of infantry, one machine-gun section and one gun battery)

3. Detachment Eulenburg (two companies of infantry, one unit cavallry and the gun battery Siewert)

4. the Latvian battaillon Kalpaks (three companies of infantry and one unit cavallry). This battaillon became nucleus of the Latvian army later.

5. a Russian unit (two infantry companies and a cavallry unit)

6. two smaller cavallry units

and several small German units

Concerning the ethnic composition, I wanted to add that besides 1,200 Germans, 70 White Russians and 400 Latvians, also 100 Jews served in the Landeswehr in early 1919. Many of the volunteers were students and some fraternities joined without any exception.
Last edited by commander on 21 Aug 2003, 17:32, edited 1 time in total.

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commander
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The liberation of Riga

#79

Post by commander » 21 Aug 2003, 17:19

Representing my German compatriots (more or less) I thought it would be interesting to mention that the liberation of Riga was seen as one of the greatest coups of this time. Since the Bolsheviks treated members of the German society badly (priests, merchants and aristocrats in particular), members of the Landeswehr felt obliged to try to stoorm Riga at once. Under the command of the 25 y.o. Baron Manteuffel, they managed it to liberate the city and to free also hostages, caught in the fortress of Riga. The photo I add here was taken in the moment the Sturmtrupp passed the Daugava bridge, some moments later, Baron Manteuffel was killed in action.
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commander
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Liberation of Riga, part 2

#80

Post by commander » 21 Aug 2003, 17:25

Here's a photo of artillery support during the assault. In the background, St.Peter's church of Riga.
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commander
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General von der Goltz

#81

Post by commander » 21 Aug 2003, 17:36

And here's (as my last post for today) a photo of General von der Goltz. I don't think he was specially mean, bad or good, he was just an ordinary officer who did not like people out of his caste. So he did not like Latvians, but also kept a certain distance to the German-Baltic barons and understood why they were hated by the Latvians.
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Tapani K.
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#82

Post by Tapani K. » 22 Aug 2003, 08:27

Thank you, commander. I knew you would have something to add here. I think I mentioned somewhere earlier that the Latvian side may be under-represented in this thread since most of the stuff here is based on German and Estonian sources.

And yes, Riga is definitely one of the most beautiful cities in Europe.


regards,
Tapani K.

Durand
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#83

Post by Durand » 22 Aug 2003, 18:26

Hallo,

Commander, with the exception of the part on Riga, I second Tapani K.'s post. Thank you for the photos and information. I look forward to more. With regard to Riga, I have never had the pleasure of visiting there. However, you are not the only two from whom I have heard it is one of the most beautiful cities in Europe. I will take it on faith that it is and hope that I will one day have the opportunity to see it with my own eyes.

Regards,

Durand

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Balrog
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#84

Post by Balrog » 22 Aug 2003, 23:40

are there any photos of a latvian or estonian armored train?

Durand
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#85

Post by Durand » 23 Aug 2003, 00:52

Hallo,

I was unable to find any photos, but there are some drawings at the following website:

http://www.railwaygun.co.uk/

Click the armoured trains icon on the menu bar at the top of the page. A list of trains by country will appear. Click on Baltic States. There are two links on that page to additional information on the subject. I had no luck with them and I believe they may be dead. Perhaps others will have more with them.

Another site that may be of interest is one dedicated to Polish armoured trains of the period:

http://derela.republika.pl/index.htm

Hopes this helps. I am looking forward to what Moulded will find. :D

Regards,

Durand

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Peter H
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#86

Post by Peter H » 23 Aug 2003, 05:29

Estonian armoured train 1919,but it looks rather ad hoc.
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#87

Post by Durand » 23 Aug 2003, 05:51

Hallo,

Moulded, thank you for posting the photo. I see what you mean and I am guessing that a number of armoured trains started out as ordinary freight trains, were quickly converted with simple additions of plating and/or guns, and then pressed into service.

Looking at the photo from the middle toward the left, it looks like steam/smoke is coming from a stack in the middle of the train. It seems that the engine is in the middle of the train. Am I interpreting this correctly? Was it common for the engine to run in the middle or as the second car of armoured trains?

Best Regards,

Durand

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Peter H
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#88

Post by Peter H » 23 Aug 2003, 08:00

Here's another photo:

Image
http://www.mil.ee/im/ajalugu/rongid.gif

Part of the Estonian Armoured Train Division that had 9 trains in May 1919.

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Peter H
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#89

Post by Peter H » 23 Aug 2003, 16:46

Baron Hans von Manteuffel(1894-1919).

In the second photo Manteuffel is in the centre facing camera.
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Peter H
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#90

Post by Peter H » 23 Aug 2003, 16:53

Manteuffel is in this photo as well--sitting between the two standing Freikorp soldiers with arms nearly linked.

Image
http://reibert.info/ss/1/3/illustr/i/i2.jpg

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