Freikorps and Estonia 1919

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Reigo
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#91

Post by Reigo » 23 Aug 2003, 19:19

The Estonian armoured trains were all ad hoc ad first. Only at the middle of 1919 they started too look more or less like the "real" ones
Looking at the photo from the middle toward the left, it looks like steam/smoke is coming from a stack in the middle of the train. It seems that the engine is in the middle of the train. Am I interpreting this correctly? Was it common for the engine to run in the middle or as the second car of armoured trains?
It was common that the engine was in the middle. There were sometimes even two engines in the middle (it was then possible to divide the train into two units.) The engine was in the middle because of security (otherwise the engine would be the first to go off the rails when the rails are broken or mined for example) and because that the gun(s) would be able to shoot directly in front.

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Balrog
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#92

Post by Balrog » 24 Aug 2003, 04:13

reigo, and others on this thread. i am looking for information on pavel bermont avalov, a white russian army commander. i read that he was active in the baltics, even issuing his own currency in areas he occupied. he was part of a joint freikorps/white army unit. what role did he play in the baltic campaign? how much did the czarist white russians and the german freikorps cooperate? also, did the kornilov shock regiment ever operate in the baltic republics?


Durand
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#93

Post by Durand » 24 Aug 2003, 04:28

Hallo Joel,

Bermondt is a bit of a shadowy figure. There is quite a bit of information about him in the thread and if you read through it I think a number of your questions will be answered. At the very least there is enough to get you started. Bermondt also wrote his memoirs titled "Im Kampf gegen Bolschewismus" in 1925.

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Durand

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Balrog
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#94

Post by Balrog » 24 Aug 2003, 05:34

i get the impression from the thread that bermont was almost a german puppet. is that correct? i admit, it is difficult for me to follow the events in the thread. someone in th thread wrote that bermont never fought the russian bolsheviks, is that correct? so, did bermont just fight with the native baltic government forces? the fate of his army is not clear(to me). so did it get destroyed in battle or just fall apart from desertions? and the bit i read about bermont issuing his own currency interests me. what was the most widely used currency in the baltic republics? with what currency did the baltic government pay the troops and purchase supplies? czarist currency? did the baltics print thier own money? did they pay for equipment in gold? some of the white russian commnders seemed to operate like chinese warlords, some where almost client generals and others independent.
Last edited by Balrog on 24 Aug 2003, 05:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter H
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#95

Post by Peter H » 24 Aug 2003, 05:40

joel pacheco wrote:reigo, and others on this thread. i am looking for information on pavel bermont avalov, a white russian army commander. i read that he was active in the baltics, even issuing his own currency in areas he occupied. he was part of a joint freikorps/white army unit. what role did he play in the baltic campaign? how much did the czarist white russians and the german freikorps cooperate? also, did the kornilov shock regiment ever operate in the baltic republics?
The joint Freikorps/white army concept was only short lived.Formed in September 1919(the force was always overwhelming German) it suffered a major defeat when trying to storm Riga from the 8th October 1919.An Allied naval force of British/French warships arrived on the 15th October and supporting the Latvians shelled them into retreat.Nine British sailors also died in this action as pro-German shore batteries hit the cruiser HMS Dragon.Avalov-Bermondt a former Czarist staff officer,described by some as inept at best,lost his command.By the end of November the Freikorps campaigns were over and they retreated back into East Prussia.

Does anyone know if its true that von der Goltz was later jailed for his Freikorps activities,especially for his defiance of the Allied directive to quit the Baltic states in August 1919?

Goltz and Avalov-Bermondt together September 1919.
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commander
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Major Bischoff

#96

Post by commander » 24 Aug 2003, 10:24

Here's a portrait of Major Fletcher...commander of the Baltische Landeswehr.
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commander
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Estonian armoured train

#97

Post by commander » 24 Aug 2003, 10:29

Here's another pic of that sort of weapon...
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Peter H
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#98

Post by Peter H » 24 Aug 2003, 11:44

Commander,
Fletcher is also in the second photo I posted of Manteuffel on the prior page to this.

He's the one in the fur-collared coat pointing at the map.

Courtesy of yourself I found out that Bermondt ended up in Denmark.Thanks :)

http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/selfstyle/ddm.htm

Durand
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#99

Post by Durand » 24 Aug 2003, 17:26

Hallo,

Joel Pacheco wrote:
the fate of his [Bermondt's] army is not clear(to me). so did it get destroyed in battle or just fall apart from desertions?
The following excerpt from Visvaldis Mangulis' work provides some additional detail to that already presented by Moulded on the collapse of Bermondt's Western Russian Army and the remains of the German FK units in the Baltic states. The entire book by Mangulis may be found at:

http://www.historia.lv/publikacijas/gra ... 06.nod.htm

Thanks goes to Tapani K. for furnishing the link to the site in an earlier post.

Hope this is of some help.

In his book "Latvia in the Wars of the 20th Century" Margulis wrote:
Upon Allied demands the German government announced on September 25 that von der Goltz would be replaced by General von Eberhardt to supervise the evacuation of German troops[90], while at the same time the German government officially sanctioned the transfer of German volunteers to the “West Russian Army”[89]. The Allies, tired of the German games, delivered an ultimatum on September 27 [91]: all Germans must be evacuated at once, including those in “Russian” service, or the Allies would reinstate the blockade of Germany. The German government immediately sent an order canceling permission to transfer into “Russian” service, but this order mysteriously took several days to reach Latvia[89], and by that time von der Goltz could truthfully state that the transferred “Russian” troops were no longer under his command. Therefore, there was nothing that he could do.

Bermondt’s “Russians” attacked Rīga on October 8, the German Legion on the right along Daugava, the Iron Division in the center along the main road from Jelgava to Rīga, and the Corps of Count von Keller on the left along the seashore[92]. Bermondt’s total army amounted to about 51,000 men, 120 airplanes, and 101 guns, while the total Latvian army consisted of 39,000 men and 33 guns[93]. However, since the best Latvian troops were on the eastern front against the Red Army, and since most of Bermondt’s forces were in Lithuania, initially in the battle for Rīga 6400 Latvians and 16 guns were pitted against 8600 men and 56 guns of Bermondt’s army[94]. [page 58] The Latvian troops were mostly raw recruits undergoing training, while the Germans were veterans of World War I.

German attempts to encircle the Latvians on the west bank of Daugava did not succeed, and on October 9 the Latvians withdrew to the east bank. On October 10 the Allies established a naval blockade on all German shipping in the Baltic Sea[95]. The Estonians sent two armored trains (guns mounted on flatcars) to help in the defense of Rīga. The Allied naval squadron moved out from the Rīga harbor into the Gulf of Rīga. Still, the Germans were afraid to cross the Daugava since the Allies could re-enter and cut them off. Consequently, the Germans confined the attack on Rīga to a heavy artillery bombardment and sent some of their forces southeast to force a crossing of Daugava further upstream[96]. They also offered a truce in insolent terms on October 11, but the Latvians did not deign to answer[97]. The Latvians took advantage of the reduction of the German forces opposite Rīga and counterattacked across Daugava on October 14 with limited success. By the evening the Latvians had to retreat back to the right bank. Admiral Sir Walter Cowan, the commander of the Allied squadron, sent an ultimatum to the Germans to withdraw by noon of October 15 [97]. When they failed to do so, French and British cruisers and destroyers, commanded by the French Rear Admiral Brisson, bombarded the Germans in support of another Latvian attack. The Latvians crossed the Daugava north of Rīga in small boats past the Allied ships, cheered on by the sailors. By the afternoon of October 15 the Latvians had a secure bridgehead on the left bank of Daugava[98].
On October 19 the Latvians repulsed German attempts to cross the Daugava upstream. Stopped in the east, the Germans turned west and occupied most of Courland. On October 31 the Rossbach Freikorps left Germany without permission and marched to Latvia[99]. It arrived on November 11, just in time to save Bermondt’s army from total defeat[4].

The major Latvian counterattack began on November 3 along the seashore with artillery support from the Allied ships. On November 10 the Latvians turned southeast. They liberated the suburbs of Rīga on the west bank of Daugava on November 11 [100]. By November 16 the Latvians threatened to encircle the German headquarters at Jelgava. The fighting was bitter on both sides: prisoners were rarely taken; the Germans left behind them a scorched earth; they carried away everything portable and torched the rest[101].

Bermondt resigned from the command of his West Russian Army on November 16 [105]. On November 17 the Iron Division and the German Legion formally requested to be taken back into the German army[95]. The Lithuanians were skirmishing with the German troops [page 62] on their territory and thus were threatening the German rear. Von der Goltz’s successor von Eberhardt arrived in Jelgava on November 17 and ordered a German counterattack against Latvians to improve the German position before offering an armistice[105]. A Baltic Interallied Military Mission, headed by the French General Niessel, was on its way to examine the situation. However, by now the Latvians were growing tired of Allied Missions which urged them to fight the Reds but did nothing to stop the German atrocities[106]. Only Allied interference had saved the German forces from annihilation after the battle of Cēsis. Despite American President Wilson’s program of Fourteen Points which appeared to imply that all nations are entitled to self-determination, the peace conference in Paris had shown only sporadic sympathy for the nations trying to liberate themselves from the Russian prison of nations[107]. They seemed to be more concerned with who is going to pay Russia’s debts to the Allies if the Reds prevail or if Russia is broken up into small nations[108]. Consequently, when the German counterattack failed, and when the Latvians threatened to surround the Germans at Jelgava, and when Eberhardt offered an armistice on November 18 (ignored by the Latvians), and when Niessel’s Mission did arrive, then Ulmanis became conveniently ill and would not receive the Mission, and Balodis was in the front lines fighting the Reds[109]. Ulmanis’ government severed diplomatic relations with Germany on November 26 and declared a state of war[110]. The Latvian forces pursued the defeated Germans into Lithuania. The last skirmishes took place there on November 30 [111]. In the words of the historian Oliver Warner [112], “but for Allied intervention, it is possible that the jubilant Letts would have advanced upon East Prussia; that, at least, was a humiliation von der Goltz was spared.” The Allies did interfere. Niessel’s Mission requested Balodis to hold back his troops. Admiral Cowan protested to the British Admiralty that such a request was madness. It gave the Germans

It gave the Germans time to transport their loot to Prussia so that Courland was utterly devastated while Prussia was teeming with livestock[113].
The last of the German troops crossed the frontier of Germany on December 13. The embittered German veterans of the Baltic campaign (called “Baltikumers” in Germany) took part in an attempted overthrow of the German government in March of 1920 (called the “Kapp Putsch”) which did not succeed. This failure [page 63] disillusioned the Baltikumers even more, and most of them eventually joined Hitler’s movement, blaming the Weimar government for all their defeats[4] [101].
This was only an excerpt. The full account contains additional information from participants.

Regards,

Durand

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Balrog
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#100

Post by Balrog » 25 Aug 2003, 02:37

i have a couple more questions.
1.)how closely related are the estonian and latvian languages? can they understand each other? or did most people in the baltics speak russian anyway, so communication was no problem?
2.)i read that bermont avalov issued his own currency in the baltics. did the governments of the baltics print thier own money? what currency was used to pay soldiers?
3.) i read there is some kind of rivarly over the centuries between latvians and estonians. after the germans went home, was there any trouble between the 2 republics?

Reigo
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#101

Post by Reigo » 07 Sep 2003, 18:15

i have a couple more questions.
1.)how closely related are the estonian and latvian languages? can they understand each other? or did most people in the baltics speak russian anyway, so communication was no problem?
They are not related. Estonian and Latvian can't understand eachother. The communication language between Latvain and Estonian military and politicians was then Russian.
2.)i read that bermont avalov issued his own currency in the baltics. did the governments of the baltics print thier own money? what currency was used to pay soldiers?
Estonia printed Mark's during the War. I believe this money was also paid to the soldiers.
3.) i read there is some kind of rivarly over the centuries between latvians and estonians. after the germans went home, was there any trouble between the 2 republics?
I think it is not right to say that there was a big rivalry over the centuries. True, before the German conquest on 13th century, the Latvian and Estonian tribes often fought eachother (looting raids and such). In 1919-1920 there was indeed a border-conflict between Estonia and Latvia. Mainly because of the town Valga (Latvian Valka). But arms were never used and eventually the town was divided into two.

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Marcus
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#102

Post by Marcus » 13 Sep 2003, 16:40

I just wanted to remind you all of the article idea ;-)

/Marcus

Gwynn Compton
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#103

Post by Gwynn Compton » 14 Sep 2003, 02:42

About another 7 weeks till I'm free to try and compile stuff.

Gwynn

pgraeser
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literature on "Baltikum-Unterehmen" - Goltz' goals

#104

Post by pgraeser » 06 Jun 2007, 14:40

Thanks to Durand and Tapani for their great contributions to this diskussions.

For those who read german there are some books that help to understand Goltz' (and of many of the German officers of the Grosse Generalstab and parts of the German Government) goals and motives during the so "Baltikum-Unternehmen":

Jobst Knigge: Kontinuität deutscher Kriegsziele im Baltikum. Hamburg 2003
Rüdiger von der Goltz: Meine Sendung in Finnland und im Baltikum. Leipzig 1920
August Winnig: Heimkehr. Hamburg 1935
Josef Bischoff: Die letzte Front. Berlin 1935

In short: Goltz and his allies wanted to defeat the Russian bolshevist troops and to establish a "white" government in Russia. After the treaty of Versailles the looked forward to build a coalition with the new Russian government and to do both: restart the war against the entente forces in the west and defeat the German Reichsregierung of Friedrich Ebert and the revolution in Germany.

The "Oststaat" wich they wanted to establish at the East Prussian and Baltic territory should become the "home base" of their forces.

Peter

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#105

Post by Noor » 25 Jun 2007, 22:14

Here is one Freikorps award as well for illustration - Baltic Cross "Baltenkreuz" :wink: :

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