Stupid me "Oberschütze"
What is the role of a Senior Private in an Infantry section? Responsible for the rifle Group or number 2(loader) on the MG?
How & why was this title confered on a Soldier?
Were there any special dispensations or conciderations given to a Senior Private? slightly higher pay perhaps?
i tried a searh in the Forum & came up with 264 entries,i read some of them but most are unrelated
Senior Private
Oberschütze
The status of Oberschütze was often conferred on soldiers who were not yet ready, or did not have enough time in the service yet, to be made a Corporal, i.e. Sturmman in the SS, or Gefreiter in the Wehrmacht. An Oberschütze, was often utilized to take over small tasks, as marching off a group to somewhere, help in training (Hilfsausbilder). The equivalent of an Oberschütze was Lance Corporal. It was not as much a denotation of rank as it was of "attaboy". HN.
Andy from the Shire
I'm not so familiar with the NCO grades of the British Army, so if you can give some examples of each rank's equivalent responsibilities/tasks, I'd be delighted.Andy H wrote:I know some former L/Cpl's in my unit who would have your guts for garters for thinking of the as PFC's within the British Army, of which there are 4 Grades of Private but never denoted as such within rank structures.
Also, if you know that there are some differences b/w current ranks and those used during WWII, that would be interesting to know.
--
These are the ones used by our forces (- my rough description of each one's task in FDF):
(none) Sotamies/Jääkäri - Soldier: no explanation needed
> Korpraali - Pvt 1 Class: assigned to a soldier w/some merit :a honorary rank; often assigned as squad leader backup or equivalent; only some PVT:s would get this rank during their service or reservist career
>> Alikersantti - Corporal (literally Sub-Sergeant) - Squad Leader: basic and most common rank of conscript NCO's: no conscript can get this rank during their service period w/o completing NCO course; typically infantry squad (8+1) leader or or specialist NCO (medic/mechanic/supply NCO, etc.).
>>> Kersantti - Sergeant - Squad Leader (or Senor spec. duty NCO): a honorary promotion from >>; quite limited number of FDF NCO:s listed above would be promoted to this rank during their service, more often after refresher courses.
>>>> Ylikersantti - Snr.(Staff) Sgt. - senior Sqd Leader/Platoon Vice
Commander (or Special duty NCO): not assigned to conscripts during their service: some experienced reservist SGT:s may be promoted to this rank due to their position and good refresher course performance
>>>>> (this should represent a large solid > bar) Vääpeli: SGT 1 Class; as above; most often CNY commander's associate NCO or equivalent: comparable to the previous w/higher qualification demands
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
"ylivääpeli" and "sotilasmestari" (~Master Sergeant and Sgt Major)
- actually represented by one big solid > bar and one or two chevrons: nowadays quite rare and only assigned to experiencd reservist platoon/battalion level senior NCO:s with special duties, like senior supply officers or equivalent
--
Nowadays it's even a bit more complicated than in the WWII days since all career (non-conscript) NCO's would start with junior officer ranks (* or **) unlike during the WWII days, but that's another story...
Hello all!
No, a Gefreiter is not a Corporal. Much confusion abounds because of the different systems used by the combatant nations of WWII. Much incorrect information is found in many books and many websites.
During WWII, in the German Army, an Unteroffizier was a section/squad leader. In the British/Canadian Army a Corporal was a section/squad leader. In the U.S. Army a Sergeant was a section/squad leader.
In the British/Canadian Army a Lance-Corporal was the 2 i/c of the section/squad. In the U.S. Army a Corporal would act as 2 i/c. The German Army did not really have a 2 i/c but the most senior Mannschaften would usually be picked, usually an Obergefreiter.
These 2 i/c positions are all unofficial and only the British/Canadian Army has an official position for this.
The confusion comes from the different systems. The German Army divides all the ranks into categories. There is much more emphasis placed on the Enlisted Ranks than in most armies.
Mannschaften:
Schutze= ordinary soldier, recruit
Oberschutze= ordinary soldier after 6 months
Gefreiter= ordinary soldier after 6 months
NOTE= after 6 months, a recruit can be promoted to either Oberschutze or Gefreiter. Gefreiter if he showed prowess, Oberschutze if he needed some more work. This is sort of like your "3 month evaluation" at a new job.
Obergefreiter= veteran ordinary soldier, after 2 years
Stabsgefreiter= veteran ordinary soldier, after 5 years
NOTE= Gefreiter, Obergefreiter and Stabsgefreiter are Mannschaften and not NCO's. The NCO's are the Unteroffiziere.
Unteroffizier ohne Portpee
Unteroffizier= section/squad leader
Unterfeldwbel= section/squad leader, 4 years as an Unteroffizier
Unteroffizier mit Portpee
Feldwebel= Platoon leader, 1 year as Unteroffizier
Oberfeldwebel= Platoon leader, 3 months as Feldwebel
Stabsfeldwebel= Senior NCO with 12 years service
NOTE= The times for all of the above are the minimum required times and a soldier may be promoted after the minimum time.
NOTE= The curious ranks are Oberschutze, Stabsgefreiter, Unterfeldwebel and Stabsfeldwebel. These ranks seem to be reserved for those soldiers in these positions that are not being promoted for one reason or another. The usual way of promotion would be, Schutze, Gefreiter, Obergefreiter, Unteroffizier, Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel then possibly Leutnant.
A Hauptfeldwebel acted as the Company Sergeant/CSM and could be a Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel or Stabsfeldwebel. The German Army had NCO Platoon leaders, the British/Canadian and U.S. Armies did not.
So, to do the closest equivalent, an Unteroffizier would be equivalent to a Corporal in the British/Canadian Army and a Sergeant in the U.S. Army.
A Gefreiter is not a Corporal and to do the closest equivalent he would be a Private First Class in the U.S. Army or a fully-trained Private in the British/Canadian Army.
My guess is that the German Army had all these Mannschaften ranks to distinguish between the trained or experienced soldiers from the raw recruits. For example, you would know that Gefreiter A is more capable than Schutze B. Yet, Oberschutze C might be almost as capable as Gefreiter A. But, Obergefreiter D is much more capable than all of these men in this section. This goes with the high emphasis that the German Army placed on the small units.
Sections and Platoons in the German Army in WWII would more than likely have a combination of the following:
Section 2 i/c: Gefreiter, Obergefreiter
Section Leader: Unteroffizier, Unterfeldwebel
Zugtrupp Leader/Deputy Platoon Leader: Unteroffizier, Unterfeldwebel, Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel
Platoon Leader: Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel, Leuntnant, Oberleutnant
Sections and Platoons in the British/Canadian Army in WWII would have the following:
Section 2 i/c: Lance-Corporal
Section Leader: Corporal
Platoon 2 i/c: Sergeant
Platoon Leader: 2nd Lieutenant, Lieutenant
Sections and Platoons in the U.S. Army in WWII would have the following:
Section/Squad 2 i/c: Corporal
Section/Squad Leader: Sergeant, Staff Sergeant
Platoon 2 i/c: Technical Sergeant
Platoon Leader: 2nd Lieutenant, 1st Lieutenant
The main difference being that the German Army had NCO's, Feldwebel and Oberfeldwebel, as being officially assigned as Platoon Leaders.
I hope this helps!!!
Cheers,
Wolfkin
No, a Gefreiter is not a Corporal. Much confusion abounds because of the different systems used by the combatant nations of WWII. Much incorrect information is found in many books and many websites.
During WWII, in the German Army, an Unteroffizier was a section/squad leader. In the British/Canadian Army a Corporal was a section/squad leader. In the U.S. Army a Sergeant was a section/squad leader.
In the British/Canadian Army a Lance-Corporal was the 2 i/c of the section/squad. In the U.S. Army a Corporal would act as 2 i/c. The German Army did not really have a 2 i/c but the most senior Mannschaften would usually be picked, usually an Obergefreiter.
These 2 i/c positions are all unofficial and only the British/Canadian Army has an official position for this.
The confusion comes from the different systems. The German Army divides all the ranks into categories. There is much more emphasis placed on the Enlisted Ranks than in most armies.
Mannschaften:
Schutze= ordinary soldier, recruit
Oberschutze= ordinary soldier after 6 months
Gefreiter= ordinary soldier after 6 months
NOTE= after 6 months, a recruit can be promoted to either Oberschutze or Gefreiter. Gefreiter if he showed prowess, Oberschutze if he needed some more work. This is sort of like your "3 month evaluation" at a new job.
Obergefreiter= veteran ordinary soldier, after 2 years
Stabsgefreiter= veteran ordinary soldier, after 5 years
NOTE= Gefreiter, Obergefreiter and Stabsgefreiter are Mannschaften and not NCO's. The NCO's are the Unteroffiziere.
Unteroffizier ohne Portpee
Unteroffizier= section/squad leader
Unterfeldwbel= section/squad leader, 4 years as an Unteroffizier
Unteroffizier mit Portpee
Feldwebel= Platoon leader, 1 year as Unteroffizier
Oberfeldwebel= Platoon leader, 3 months as Feldwebel
Stabsfeldwebel= Senior NCO with 12 years service
NOTE= The times for all of the above are the minimum required times and a soldier may be promoted after the minimum time.
NOTE= The curious ranks are Oberschutze, Stabsgefreiter, Unterfeldwebel and Stabsfeldwebel. These ranks seem to be reserved for those soldiers in these positions that are not being promoted for one reason or another. The usual way of promotion would be, Schutze, Gefreiter, Obergefreiter, Unteroffizier, Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel then possibly Leutnant.
A Hauptfeldwebel acted as the Company Sergeant/CSM and could be a Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel or Stabsfeldwebel. The German Army had NCO Platoon leaders, the British/Canadian and U.S. Armies did not.
So, to do the closest equivalent, an Unteroffizier would be equivalent to a Corporal in the British/Canadian Army and a Sergeant in the U.S. Army.
A Gefreiter is not a Corporal and to do the closest equivalent he would be a Private First Class in the U.S. Army or a fully-trained Private in the British/Canadian Army.
My guess is that the German Army had all these Mannschaften ranks to distinguish between the trained or experienced soldiers from the raw recruits. For example, you would know that Gefreiter A is more capable than Schutze B. Yet, Oberschutze C might be almost as capable as Gefreiter A. But, Obergefreiter D is much more capable than all of these men in this section. This goes with the high emphasis that the German Army placed on the small units.
Sections and Platoons in the German Army in WWII would more than likely have a combination of the following:
Section 2 i/c: Gefreiter, Obergefreiter
Section Leader: Unteroffizier, Unterfeldwebel
Zugtrupp Leader/Deputy Platoon Leader: Unteroffizier, Unterfeldwebel, Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel
Platoon Leader: Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel, Leuntnant, Oberleutnant
Sections and Platoons in the British/Canadian Army in WWII would have the following:
Section 2 i/c: Lance-Corporal
Section Leader: Corporal
Platoon 2 i/c: Sergeant
Platoon Leader: 2nd Lieutenant, Lieutenant
Sections and Platoons in the U.S. Army in WWII would have the following:
Section/Squad 2 i/c: Corporal
Section/Squad Leader: Sergeant, Staff Sergeant
Platoon 2 i/c: Technical Sergeant
Platoon Leader: 2nd Lieutenant, 1st Lieutenant
The main difference being that the German Army had NCO's, Feldwebel and Oberfeldwebel, as being officially assigned as Platoon Leaders.
I hope this helps!!!
Cheers,
Wolfkin
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Christoph Awender
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Oberschütze
No ! A Schütze did NOT automatically become an Oberschütze after three months. That status had to be EARNED ! He became as it were a "model" for his group. And YES, a Gefreiter/Sturmmann, WAS a Corporal; and Obergefreiter/Rottenführer WAS a Corporal first class, and lastly Stabsgefreiter/Oberrottenführer, was a dead rank, given to men who just did not quite have it to become a non commissioned officer, but had functions that required some rank. Just from memory. HN
Hello Haen!
I did not say they became Oberschutze after three months, read my post again. I said this:
Mannschaften:
Schutze= ordinary soldier, recruit
Oberschutze= ordinary soldier after 6 months
Gefreiter= ordinary soldier after 6 months
NOTE= after 6 months, a recruit can be promoted to either Oberschutze or Gefreiter. Gefreiter if he showed prowess, Oberschutze if he needed some more work. This is sort of like your "3 month evaluation" at a new job.
As for a Gefreiter being a Corporal, this is nonsense! Corporals lead sections, since when did a Gefreiter lead a section? Corporals are junior NCOs, a Gefreiter is a Mannschaften!
An Unteroffizier would be the closest equivalent to a Corporal. This is because an Unteroffizier leads a section. An Unteroffizier is an NCO. I also said that not all ranks were used all the time. I said this:
NOTE= The curious ranks are Oberschutze, Stabsgefreiter, Unterfeldwebel and Stabsfeldwebel. These ranks seem to be reserved for those soldiers in these positions that are not being promoted for one reason or another. The usual way of promotion would be, Schutze, Gefreiter, Obergefreiter, Unteroffizier, Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel then possibly Leutnant.
The normal progression did not always include Oberschutze. I find it strange that you say this rank was earned. It is more like the rank of Gefreiter was earned and a soldier was given Oberschutze if he did not meet the requirements for Gefreiter.
Did you bother to read my post at all? I said that the different Armies used different systems and that direct equivalents are difficult to establish so we must LOOK AT WHAT THE RANKS DID!
THIS IS HOW MY EQUIVALENTS ARE ESTABLISHED!
I think most people do a different method to make equivalents and this method is flawed. You have to look at what the ranks did and what their responsibilites were. You don't just line up the respective ranks and say that they are equivalent.
For example, in the German Army in WWII an Unteroffizier is a section leader. He would be equivalent to a Corporal in the British/Canadian Army because in these armies in WWII a Corporal was a section leader. An Unteroffizier would be equivalent to a Sergeant in the U.S. Army because in WWII a Sergeant was a section leader. An Unteroffizier would not be equivalent to a Sergeant in the British/Canadian Army because a Sergeant was a Platoon 2 i/c.
This is where many tables of equivalent rank go wrong. Then they go on and have incorrect equivalents for Unterfeldwebel, Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel and so on. Then they try to squeeze CSM, RSM, Platoon Sergeants, First Sergeants and so on in there as well. My point is that the German Army followed a different system. In fact the German Army, British/Canadian and U.S. Armies of WWII each, in a way, had their own little systems going on.
A Gefreiter is not a Corporal!
Cheers,
Wolfkin
I did not say they became Oberschutze after three months, read my post again. I said this:
Mannschaften:
Schutze= ordinary soldier, recruit
Oberschutze= ordinary soldier after 6 months
Gefreiter= ordinary soldier after 6 months
NOTE= after 6 months, a recruit can be promoted to either Oberschutze or Gefreiter. Gefreiter if he showed prowess, Oberschutze if he needed some more work. This is sort of like your "3 month evaluation" at a new job.
As for a Gefreiter being a Corporal, this is nonsense! Corporals lead sections, since when did a Gefreiter lead a section? Corporals are junior NCOs, a Gefreiter is a Mannschaften!
An Unteroffizier would be the closest equivalent to a Corporal. This is because an Unteroffizier leads a section. An Unteroffizier is an NCO. I also said that not all ranks were used all the time. I said this:
NOTE= The curious ranks are Oberschutze, Stabsgefreiter, Unterfeldwebel and Stabsfeldwebel. These ranks seem to be reserved for those soldiers in these positions that are not being promoted for one reason or another. The usual way of promotion would be, Schutze, Gefreiter, Obergefreiter, Unteroffizier, Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel then possibly Leutnant.
The normal progression did not always include Oberschutze. I find it strange that you say this rank was earned. It is more like the rank of Gefreiter was earned and a soldier was given Oberschutze if he did not meet the requirements for Gefreiter.
Did you bother to read my post at all? I said that the different Armies used different systems and that direct equivalents are difficult to establish so we must LOOK AT WHAT THE RANKS DID!
THIS IS HOW MY EQUIVALENTS ARE ESTABLISHED!
I think most people do a different method to make equivalents and this method is flawed. You have to look at what the ranks did and what their responsibilites were. You don't just line up the respective ranks and say that they are equivalent.
For example, in the German Army in WWII an Unteroffizier is a section leader. He would be equivalent to a Corporal in the British/Canadian Army because in these armies in WWII a Corporal was a section leader. An Unteroffizier would be equivalent to a Sergeant in the U.S. Army because in WWII a Sergeant was a section leader. An Unteroffizier would not be equivalent to a Sergeant in the British/Canadian Army because a Sergeant was a Platoon 2 i/c.
This is where many tables of equivalent rank go wrong. Then they go on and have incorrect equivalents for Unterfeldwebel, Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel and so on. Then they try to squeeze CSM, RSM, Platoon Sergeants, First Sergeants and so on in there as well. My point is that the German Army followed a different system. In fact the German Army, British/Canadian and U.S. Armies of WWII each, in a way, had their own little systems going on.
A Gefreiter is not a Corporal!
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Hello Haen!
Just looking at some of your responses again and a few things puzzle me. Some things just do not make sense here. Let me explain further.
Firstly, how can an Oberschutze be a Lance Corporal? A Lance Corporal was a Private acting as a Section 2 i/c and this was not actually a rank it was an assignment. So, therefore an Oberschutze can not be a Lance Corporal. Unless every single Oberschutze was a Section 2 i/c, which they were not.
Secondly, I do not undertand this "Corporal First Class" business. Is this a made up rank or something? I don't believe this rank actually exists, at least not in the British/Canadian or U.S. Armies. Please explain this rank to me.
Thirdly, the rank of Oberrottenfuhrer was NOT a Waffen SS rank. This rank existed only in the Hitler Jugend Youth Organization. As apparently you are a former Waffen SS Veteran, you should know this. Now, if this rank did exist please tell me what the collar insignia was for it.
Please excuse the firmness in my replies but all of this looks like someone has gotten their information from badly translated Ballantine Books, or from some of those inaccurate rank equivalent charts one finds in some Schiffer Books or something along those lines. Like I said in my above posts, this is something I have spent a long time looking into and one can not really find direct equivalents, one must look at what the ranks did and make a comparison that way. One only needs to read my posts to see that I have spent much time researching this.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Just looking at some of your responses again and a few things puzzle me. Some things just do not make sense here. Let me explain further.
Firstly, how can an Oberschutze be a Lance Corporal? A Lance Corporal was a Private acting as a Section 2 i/c and this was not actually a rank it was an assignment. So, therefore an Oberschutze can not be a Lance Corporal. Unless every single Oberschutze was a Section 2 i/c, which they were not.
Secondly, I do not undertand this "Corporal First Class" business. Is this a made up rank or something? I don't believe this rank actually exists, at least not in the British/Canadian or U.S. Armies. Please explain this rank to me.
Thirdly, the rank of Oberrottenfuhrer was NOT a Waffen SS rank. This rank existed only in the Hitler Jugend Youth Organization. As apparently you are a former Waffen SS Veteran, you should know this. Now, if this rank did exist please tell me what the collar insignia was for it.
Please excuse the firmness in my replies but all of this looks like someone has gotten their information from badly translated Ballantine Books, or from some of those inaccurate rank equivalent charts one finds in some Schiffer Books or something along those lines. Like I said in my above posts, this is something I have spent a long time looking into and one can not really find direct equivalents, one must look at what the ranks did and make a comparison that way. One only needs to read my posts to see that I have spent much time researching this.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
ranks
Hi Wolfie 
For a moment I thought I had lost it. Then I remembered, we had in our Batallion indeed an Oberrottenführer; an old guy, probably good for nothing else anymore, but used to teach us singing and give propaganda speeches. He had two chevrons plus if I remember it well something like an Uscha pip in the crook of the top chevron. You are correct, it is nowhere to be found as such. Perhaps a "made up" thing by a charitable CO ???
The rank comparison between different armies is sometimes fuzzy. But here it comes, from memory: (not from the chart) and certainly not from Ballantine (whatever they are) books.
Schütze/Grenadier = Private (was one)
Oberschütze= Senior private; in some armies, Lance corporal (was one)
Sturmmann=Corporal (was one)
Rottenführer= Senior Corporal or Corporal 1st class. (skippe that one)
Oberrottenführer= dead rank corporal ??? charity rank ????
Unterscharführer=Bucksergeant (was one)
Scharführer= Sergeant, dead rank, often waffenmeisters, rustungs kammer etc.
Oberscharführer= Sergeant first classe
Hauptscharführer=Master Sergeant
Stabsscharführer= Sergeant Major administrative. (Spiess)
Etc. etc.
If I am wrong, I either have lost some memory, or just blame my ausbilders
Oh yes we also had an old guy running (well running )??? around with the old rank of "Sturmführer"; something between a second and first Louwie
Regards. HN.
p.s. I also do know that there was a HJ rank as such.
For a moment I thought I had lost it. Then I remembered, we had in our Batallion indeed an Oberrottenführer; an old guy, probably good for nothing else anymore, but used to teach us singing and give propaganda speeches. He had two chevrons plus if I remember it well something like an Uscha pip in the crook of the top chevron. You are correct, it is nowhere to be found as such. Perhaps a "made up" thing by a charitable CO ???The rank comparison between different armies is sometimes fuzzy. But here it comes, from memory: (not from the chart) and certainly not from Ballantine (whatever they are) books.
Schütze/Grenadier = Private (was one)
Oberschütze= Senior private; in some armies, Lance corporal (was one)
Sturmmann=Corporal (was one)
Rottenführer= Senior Corporal or Corporal 1st class. (skippe that one)
Oberrottenführer= dead rank corporal ??? charity rank ????
Unterscharführer=Bucksergeant (was one)
Scharführer= Sergeant, dead rank, often waffenmeisters, rustungs kammer etc.
Oberscharführer= Sergeant first classe
Hauptscharführer=Master Sergeant
Stabsscharführer= Sergeant Major administrative. (Spiess)
Etc. etc.
If I am wrong, I either have lost some memory, or just blame my ausbilders
Oh yes we also had an old guy running (well running
)??? around with the old rank of "Sturmführer"; something between a second and first LouwieRegards. HN.
p.s. I also do know that there was a HJ rank as such.
Hello Haen!
I do not know what the problem is here, I have an idea which I will explain as I go through this, but I do not think that I would call those equivalencies completely accurate. I agree that there can be difficulty in making equivalnecies but one can make comparisons by looking at what the respective ranks did. For example during WWII, an Unteroffizier/Unterscharfuhrer was a section commander in the German Army/Waffen SS, a Corporal was a section commander in the British/Canadian Army and a Sergeant was a section commander in the U.S. Army. So, right off the bat we have a conflict between the different nations. Your rank equivalents might work for the U.S. Army but more than likely not for other nations.
It might be better to use what the ranks did as a way to do equivalents. It might look sort of like this:
Section leader:
German- Unteroffizier
British/Canadian- Corporal
U.S. Army- Sergeant
Even for the U.S. Army there are some problems with those equivalents of yours. Ranks and assignments are being mixed up. As well, some ranks that a soldier did not have to normally pass through are being made equivalent to ranks in another army that a soldier did have to pass through. I believe that people might misunderstand the difference between a rank and an appointment/assignment. A rank is a title that you will normally have to pass through to progress through to another. An appointment/assignment is a position that a ranking soldier can hold for a period of time, but not every soldier will pass through this title.
For example, the ranks of Oberschutze and Unterfeldwebel/Scharfuhrer are ranks that a soldier did not normally have to pass through. Therefore trying to make an equivalent to these ranks is useless. One should stick with the normal rank progression. Schutze, Sturmmann, Rottenfuhrer, Unterscharfuhrer, Oberscharfuhrer, Hauptscharfuhrer and so on.
Schutze would be the equivalent to a Private in the U.S. and British/Canadian Armies, Untercharfuhrer would be equivalent to a Sergeant in the U.S. Army and a Corporal in the British/Canadian Army. "Buck Sergeant" is a U.S. term that means the lowest Sergeant rank, that is the one with Three Stripes. Since both Sturmmann and Rottenfuhrer can be section 2 i/c they would indirectly be equivalent to a Lance Corporal in the British/Canadian Army but since this is an actual assignment and not a rank this equivalent would not entirely be accurate. It might be accurate to make them equivalent to Corporal in the U.S. Army but this might not be completely accurate either.
The Oberscharfuhrer and Hauptscharfuhrer ranks also are difficult because the German Army had NCO Platoon leaders while the U.S. and British/Canadian Armies did not. But at the same time an Oberscharfuhrer and Hauptscharfuhrer could also be found as a Platoon 2 i/c so in a way they could be equivalent to a Sergeant in the British/Canadian Army. For the U.S. Army, there was NO Sergeant First Class in WWII this rank was called Technical Sergeant or Platoon Sergeant, the Oberscharfuhrer/Hauptscharfuhrer ranks would be similar to this rank, the Technical/Platoon Sergeant.
I would not put the U.S. Army Master Sergeant in here with the Oberscharfuhrer/Hauptscharfuhrer because a Master Sergeant would be acting as either a First Sergeant of a Company or a Senior NCO/Master Sergeant at a Battalion or Regiment. The First Sergeant is similar to the British/Canadian Company Sergeant Major and thus would be equivalent to the Hauptfeldwebel/Stabsscharfuhrer. Also, the U.S. Army did not have a Sergeant Major in WWII, they brought this in after WWII as well as changing the Technical Sergeant/Platoon Sergeant to Sergeant First Class. So, since we are discussing WWII here, I am using the ranks that were used then.
This is interesting about the Stabsgefreiter/Oberrottenfuhrer. The sleeve inignia is that of a Stabsgefreiter but this is not what I asked. I was wondering what the COLLAR INSIGNIA was. This would give a clue as to whether the "Oberrottenfuhrer" was an unofficial title given to this individual.
So, no one is to blame here it is just that ranks, assignments, different era terminology and different nation systems are all being mixed up together in the attempt to make equivalents. I hope that I have helped clear up these muddy waters.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
I do not know what the problem is here, I have an idea which I will explain as I go through this, but I do not think that I would call those equivalencies completely accurate. I agree that there can be difficulty in making equivalnecies but one can make comparisons by looking at what the respective ranks did. For example during WWII, an Unteroffizier/Unterscharfuhrer was a section commander in the German Army/Waffen SS, a Corporal was a section commander in the British/Canadian Army and a Sergeant was a section commander in the U.S. Army. So, right off the bat we have a conflict between the different nations. Your rank equivalents might work for the U.S. Army but more than likely not for other nations.
It might be better to use what the ranks did as a way to do equivalents. It might look sort of like this:
Section leader:
German- Unteroffizier
British/Canadian- Corporal
U.S. Army- Sergeant
Even for the U.S. Army there are some problems with those equivalents of yours. Ranks and assignments are being mixed up. As well, some ranks that a soldier did not have to normally pass through are being made equivalent to ranks in another army that a soldier did have to pass through. I believe that people might misunderstand the difference between a rank and an appointment/assignment. A rank is a title that you will normally have to pass through to progress through to another. An appointment/assignment is a position that a ranking soldier can hold for a period of time, but not every soldier will pass through this title.
For example, the ranks of Oberschutze and Unterfeldwebel/Scharfuhrer are ranks that a soldier did not normally have to pass through. Therefore trying to make an equivalent to these ranks is useless. One should stick with the normal rank progression. Schutze, Sturmmann, Rottenfuhrer, Unterscharfuhrer, Oberscharfuhrer, Hauptscharfuhrer and so on.
Schutze would be the equivalent to a Private in the U.S. and British/Canadian Armies, Untercharfuhrer would be equivalent to a Sergeant in the U.S. Army and a Corporal in the British/Canadian Army. "Buck Sergeant" is a U.S. term that means the lowest Sergeant rank, that is the one with Three Stripes. Since both Sturmmann and Rottenfuhrer can be section 2 i/c they would indirectly be equivalent to a Lance Corporal in the British/Canadian Army but since this is an actual assignment and not a rank this equivalent would not entirely be accurate. It might be accurate to make them equivalent to Corporal in the U.S. Army but this might not be completely accurate either.
The Oberscharfuhrer and Hauptscharfuhrer ranks also are difficult because the German Army had NCO Platoon leaders while the U.S. and British/Canadian Armies did not. But at the same time an Oberscharfuhrer and Hauptscharfuhrer could also be found as a Platoon 2 i/c so in a way they could be equivalent to a Sergeant in the British/Canadian Army. For the U.S. Army, there was NO Sergeant First Class in WWII this rank was called Technical Sergeant or Platoon Sergeant, the Oberscharfuhrer/Hauptscharfuhrer ranks would be similar to this rank, the Technical/Platoon Sergeant.
I would not put the U.S. Army Master Sergeant in here with the Oberscharfuhrer/Hauptscharfuhrer because a Master Sergeant would be acting as either a First Sergeant of a Company or a Senior NCO/Master Sergeant at a Battalion or Regiment. The First Sergeant is similar to the British/Canadian Company Sergeant Major and thus would be equivalent to the Hauptfeldwebel/Stabsscharfuhrer. Also, the U.S. Army did not have a Sergeant Major in WWII, they brought this in after WWII as well as changing the Technical Sergeant/Platoon Sergeant to Sergeant First Class. So, since we are discussing WWII here, I am using the ranks that were used then.
This is interesting about the Stabsgefreiter/Oberrottenfuhrer. The sleeve inignia is that of a Stabsgefreiter but this is not what I asked. I was wondering what the COLLAR INSIGNIA was. This would give a clue as to whether the "Oberrottenfuhrer" was an unofficial title given to this individual.
So, no one is to blame here it is just that ranks, assignments, different era terminology and different nation systems are all being mixed up together in the attempt to make equivalents. I hope that I have helped clear up these muddy waters.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
ranks
Hi again, It's really not important anymore; and yes I agree that there is a difference in ranks and assigned status. for example a "Stabsscharführer' could be any noncom. The difference was visible on his sleeve with two white/silverish bands at the cuff hight.
That old O.R.Fúhrer had (by memory) only the normal two stripes on his collartab. We can discuss this ad infinitum, but there is no use to it. Regards. HN.
That old O.R.Fúhrer had (by memory) only the normal two stripes on his collartab. We can discuss this ad infinitum, but there is no use to it. Regards. HN.