Gefechtsstärken at "Bagration"

[Jan-Hendrik]

Genlemen, I am looking for the infantristical Gefechtsstärken of AOK 9 and AOK 2 prior to the beginning of the soviet summer offensive of June 1944.

Jan-Hendrik

[Qvist]

Good luck - "infanteristische Gefechtsstärke" is, in my impression, an exceedingly rare reporting category.

As concerns normal Gefechtsstärke, AOK 2 had 23,323 in its Verbände on 17 June, according to Thomas Kröker: Die Fehlschätzung der Sowjetischen Operationsabsichten im Sommer 1944 – der Zusammenbruch der Heeresgruppe Mitte.. I don't have anything of AOK 9 I'm afraid. I do have figures for the Heeresgruppe as a whole for 1 June, but I take it you already have those?

cheers

[Jan-Hendrik]

Well, dear Quist, at themoment I am reading Hinz's Bug- Moskwa- Beresina about AR 267, there, as typical for Hinze, you find a chapter regarding the situation of HGr. Mitte before "Bagration", on the expections of the different AOKs and so on ... in his final words of this chapter he listes the various front length's for the different AOK's and gives for PzAOK 3 with its exposed Witebsk-balcony to defend for a front length of 207 Km a "infantristischen Gefechtsstärke" of 21,623 men.

Now I see you figures for AOK 2, there was this ratio not much better, and I think, for AOK 9 we will find similar figures. Intended by Hinze's description I would tend to say, seeing those ratios and the terrain they had to defend (even when we take in mind that the AOK's themselves interpretated the soviet intentions for the summer offensive correctly, what GFM Busch and Hitler had so strongly denied) this battle was already lost before the first shot fell.

I don't want to discuss the happenings and the outcome of "Bagration" a 100th time, myself gets more and more interested in its prepation

Jan-Hendrik

[Qvist]

Hello again,

gives for PzAOK 3 with its exposed Witebsk-balcony to defend for a front length of 207 Km a "infantristischen Gefechtsstärke" of 21,623 men.

Could I trouble you for a reference (page number and if possible archival basis) for that? It would be very useful to me.

Now I see you figures for AOK 2, there was this ratio not much better, and I think, for AOK 9 we will find similar figures.

There is the question though if the AOK2 figure is on the same basis as the one quoted by Hinze for PzAOK 3, and also of exactly what the nature of the figure is. This is one of the maddening things about strength reporting - it is quite possible that what Hinze refers to as "infanteristische Gefechtsstärke" is in fact the same thing as "Gefechtsstärke", but it is also possible that it isn't. Perhaps most likely, it is most akin to the old Grabenstärke. Come to think of it, it is also possible that the figure Kröker quotes for AOK 2 is in fact also inf.Gef.St.

The overall Gefechtsstärke for the Heeresgruppe would perhaps tend to indicate that it is, because it was as high as 285,843 just in the grosse Verbände on 1 June. Split between four armies, that averages out to more than 70,000 men per army. Even the Kampfstärke, which as you know refers to men actually deployed in the frontline or directly supporting them, was 214, 164, again in the gr. Vbde. What sort of frontages did AOK4 and 9 have, btw?

I don't to discuss the happenings and the outcome of "Bagration" a 100th time, myself gets more and more interested in its prepation

I agree, this is a key point.

cheers

[Jan-Hendrik]

Well, page 517 of the mentioned book. Ususal for Hinze ( :roll: ) he just states which KTBs and Anlagebände he had used in a small prefix in the beginning of the book, could scan it in and send it to your Mail-Addy if wanted

- AOK 4- front lengt ca. 200 km , AOK 9 ca 280 km and AOK 2ca. 300Km (page 511)

, for PzAOK 3 he gives a breakdown to the Korps-level (again page 517):

VI.AK > 65 km
IX.AK > 64 km
LIII.AK > 87,5 km


Jan-Hendrik

[Qvist]

Well, page 517 of the mentioned book. Ususal for Hinze ( ) he just states which KTBs and Anlagebände he had used in a small prefix in the beginning of the book, could scan it in and send it to your Mail-Addy if wanted

Thanks, that would be most helpful!

- AOK 4- front lengt ca. 200 km , AOK 9 ca 280 km and AOK ca. 300Km (page 511)

Which, from what you say about AOK 2, would mean that AOK 9 and 4 had roughly 50% of the frontage. However, the inf.gef.st. of Pz3 and AOK 2 corresponds to less than 20% of the Gef.St. (gr.Vbde) of the Heeresgruppe, so it must either be the case that the former is very narrowly defined, or that AOK 9 and 4 had a much better force density?

cheers

[Mark V.]

Some relevant pages from Niepold: Mittlere Ostfront Juni 44'.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Typo's corrected

Well, I looked at it from the geographical situation...while AOK 4 had the Dnejpr as theoretical "backbone" of its defence, PzAOK 3 had from the beginning the gap between Düna and Dnjepr, Orscha and Witebsk as a "natural gate" for motorized troops, AOK 2 could lean on the Pripjet and it swamps which naturally disturbs any action of motorezed forces. And AOK 9 had, in my opinion, the so called "Arschkarte", the gap between Pripjet, Dnjpr and Beresina. There, from the terrain, a breakthrough , together with a river crossing around Rogatschew could breakdown the backbone of whole AOK 9 without any chances for a "fallback" towards Minsk for its troops. And, as seen, soviet troops used all those gaps which are hardly to defend without a neccessary "Grabenstärke" for its breakthroughs

Hnize's mentions a Denkschrift by PzAOK 3 which was sent to Busch with the purpose to send it further to Htiler where the above problems were analyzed on the example of the front of PzAOK 3...

Jan-Hendrik

[Jan-Hendrik]

Merci, dear Marko!

Had forgotten that Niepold provided this data in his annex

Jan-Hendrik

[Qvist]

Some overall figures:

[Jan-Hendrik]

Thanks for those excerpts, the comparison with the strength of HGr. NU and SU ist intersting, too, especially as HGr. Mitte had to transfer most of its mobile reserves to HGr. NU...

Jan-Hendrik

[Michate]

The DRZW Vol. 8 has a few more figures. I will try to post them when back from Italy.
If you look at the figures from Niepold, they show that the German field army commanders had reinforced the sectors under attack to the best of their limited capabilities.

The figures from Hinze do not sound unrealistic. According to Kroeker, the infantry-Gefechtststaerken of the divisions in 3. Pz. army were between 1700 (lowest) and 3000 (highest) IIRC (would have to look that up, too), so 23,000 for 10 divisons seems in the ballpark, as it seems when comared to AOK 4 and 9.

As concerns normal Gefechtsstärke, AOK 2 had 23,323 in its Verbände on 17 June, according to Thomas Kröker: Die Fehlschätzung der Sowjetischen Operationsabsichten im Sommer 1944 – der Zusammenbruch der Heeresgruppe Mitte.. I don't have anything of AOK 9 I'm afraid. I do have figures for the Heeresgruppe as a whole for 1 June, but I take it you already have those?

Qvist, if you look at the divisional breakdowns of 2nd army, these refer almost surely just to infantry strength.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Hi, Michate, that would be nice

Jan-Hendrik

[Jan-Hendrik]

*push*

Jan-Hendrik

[Jan-Hendrik]

*push*

Jan-Hendrik