German tanks lost at sea on December 13th 1941

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Andy H
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German tanks lost at sea on December 13th 1941

#1

Post by Andy H » 28 Nov 2007, 13:20

Whilst reading about convoy M42 I was wondering what units were due to get the tanks onboard the Italian freighters Carlo del Greco (23tanks) & Fabio Filzi (22tanks) sunk by the British submarine Upright on December 13th 1941

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Andreas
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#2

Post by Andreas » 28 Nov 2007, 13:43

Jon answered that question in the other thread:
Jon G. wrote:Ships sunk en route carried 34 Pz III and 11 Pz II, intended for the 3. and 7. companies of Panzerregiment 5.
All the best

Andreas


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Andy H
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#3

Post by Andy H » 28 Nov 2007, 14:22

Hi Andreas

What thread was this? as when I searched for one of the ships names I got one hit in the Austro-Hungarian section.

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#4

Post by Andreas » 28 Nov 2007, 14:52

Hi Andy

This one: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=130956

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#5

Post by Jon G. » 29 Nov 2007, 12:33

Just to clarify, Jentz gives the sinking date as December 19th, which can't be correct. It is unfortunate that both Jentz and Sadkovich are so numerically challenged. Numerous typos are easily identified, other numbers just look... suspicious. Why is it, for example, that the Ankara reached Benghazi on Dec. 19th with tanks for the 3rd company, Pz. Regt. 8, and an Italian ship reached Tripoli on the same day with tanks for the 7th company, Pz. Regt. 8, whereas ships 'sunk on 19 December' (sic) carried tanks for the 3rd and 7th companies of Pz. Regt. 5? The repetition of dates is demonstrably wrong, which in turn makes me suspect that the repeat company numbers could be wrong, too.

Sadkovich has a penchant for repeating the same numbers, too. On p. 205 of his book he lists both the Carlo del Greco and the Fabio Filzi as weighing 6,836 tons. The two ships were of the same type AFAIK, but I'm simply suspicious because they're listed next to one another. This excellent Italian website lists the Fabio Filzi at 6,836 tons and the Carlo del Greco at 6,837 tons. Unimportant detail? Perhaps, but I am allowed to expect accuracy from a book which costs significantly more than the Korean colour tv which I just picked up.

Note, however, that the Italian site only lists the Fabio Filzi as carrying tanks.

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Urmel
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Re: German tanks lost at sea on December 13th 1941

#6

Post by Urmel » 15 Feb 2009, 16:23

The Italian site may or may not be incorrect. Both ships may have carried German tanks, or they could have been in one only. But I doubt that, somehow. As an aside, according to the Miraramar ship index I think they were built off the same plan. The only difference seems to be the 1 GRT displacement. The company number repetition is correct, these were four newly formed companies, two each for the two regiments. The sinking date in Jentz is wrong however, they were sunk on 13 Dec 41 while proceeding towards convoy assembly for M.42.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: German tanks lost at sea on December 13th 1941

#7

Post by Urmel » 08 Sep 2011, 22:52

There were also 52 Italian medium tanks for Littorio.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: German tanks lost at sea on December 13th 1941

#8

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 09 Sep 2011, 14:03

Jon, The company numbers are correct, neither Panzer regiment had its 3rd or 7th companies present when they arrived in Africa and both sets of 3rd and 7th were shipped out late in 1941 with PR 5 being the unlucky regiment to lose its 3rd and 7th.
Alan

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Re: German tanks lost at sea on December 13th 1941

#9

Post by Urmel » 09 Sep 2011, 14:39

Alanmccoubrey wrote:Jon, The company numbers are correct, neither Panzer regiment had its 3rd or 7th companies present when they arrived in Africa and both sets of 3rd and 7th were shipped out late in 1941 with PR 5 being the unlucky regiment to lose its 3rd and 7th.
Correct. 3. and 7. of PR8 arrived on Ankara in Benghazi and were immediately thrown into combat. One of them was quickly captured, with just 400km on the odometer.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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