Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

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RichTO90
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#256

Post by RichTO90 » 20 Feb 2015, 23:52

Michael Kenny wrote:
villersluft0005.jpg
villersFILM1xxx0233.jpg
The Tiger above was penetrated and then set on fire. Yet the photos show that it had its engine re-started and an attempt was made to drive it out. Despite very serious damage it fired up at stuttered forward into the far wall of the shop window knocking a chunk out of it. Tanks are tougher than we give them credit for!
Maybe he was practicing the well-known Ostfront Building Collapse Tactic?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#257

Post by Michael Kenny » 21 Feb 2015, 00:04

Short tracked Tiger in Italy

fender0002.jpg


Alex Tijerina
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#258

Post by Alex Tijerina » 21 Feb 2015, 03:08

What is a short track tank?

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Dwight Pruitt
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#259

Post by Dwight Pruitt » 21 Feb 2015, 03:46

Alex, the above photo is a great example. When there is damage to the running gear, especially the drive sprocket, and the tank needs to be towed, the track on that side is broken and shortened and the sprocket (or idler) is bypassed to keep the roadwheels on tracks and off the ground.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#260

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Feb 2015, 09:08

Michael Kenny wrote:
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:


VBCOLOUR000LITE1SMLER.jpg
Wittmann's Tiger is just out of view to the left.
It can be claimed those are the marks made by the Tiger as it swerved around and came to a stop almost straight away.
Michael Kenny wrote:


The Tiger above was penetrated and then set on fire. Yet the photos show that it had its engine re-started and an attempt was made to drive it out. Despite very serious damage it fired up at stuttered forward into the far wall of the shop window knocking a chunk out of it. Tanks are tougher than we give them credit for!
Michael Kenny wrote:

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote: The entire line of reasoning on my part was that the Tiger couldn't have possibly gone back eastwards, as far as it did, ..with a drive sprocket which was a goner..with a damaged track that had taken a straight hit from a 17 pounder,
.................Since the discussion was moving towards the condition of the damaged track and the mechanics of towing the tank, it was important to establish the nature of damage to the track and sprockets. That was central to the debate at this stage...how badly was the track / sprocket damaged..how far the Tiger could have possibly moved on it from the Rue Pasteur back to town centre............... And with that kind of damage would the Tiger have been able to drive back so far
Possibly the same way this one did?
Panzer Truppen Vol 2, page 34-35

We counted 227 hits from anti-tank rifle rounds, 14 hits from 5.7 cm and 4.5 cm anti-tank guns, and 11 hits from 7.62 cm guns. The right track and suspension were heavily damaged. Several road wheels and their suspension arms were perforated. The idler wheel had worked out of its mount. In spite of all this damage, the Tiger still managed to cover an additional 60 kilometers under its own power
Tiger 227 hits.jpg
For those that do not know the front sprocket is far too low and thus it has serious damage normaly only seen on completely burnt out Tigers.

You won't find it amiss if I say i am thoroughly confused as to what Wittmann's Tiger is supposed to have actually done?

Did it get hit from behind while moving east , near that garment shop and then, in your words, " it swerved around and came to a stop almost straight away" ? Of course that would mean that the Firefly hit it, when out of LOS, the "crest" having hidden it..and at that angle, with the 17 pounder firing uphill, so to speak, managed to hit it in the tracks to boot !?

OR


Did it get hit on the other side of the "crest"..within 200 yards of the Firefly ( as per Sgt Lockwood) ..which would mean it had to traverse 400 yards to reach the shop (total distance 600 yds less 200 yds distance between the 2 tanks during the encounter) where it was abandoned as per the sketch provided by you :


Michael Kenny wrote:There is a good reason why no one knew Wittmann's Tiger had been disabled. There is a 'dip' in the road and the false crest hides the Tiger from view once it backs away into the smoke and dust.
VillersBocage-Street Plans- (5).jpg
VillersBocage-Street Plans- (5)b.jpg

So which one was it actually?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#261

Post by Michael Kenny » 22 Feb 2015, 09:53

It is impossible to get every detail of every action. We can only work with what we know. You start with the fixed facts and work backwards. Wittmann was engaged by a Firefly. Hits were observed. He turned tail. He was lost from sight. Unknown to the Firefly Wittmann came to a stop not long after the observed hits. Wittmann was forced to exit the Tiger and flee. Wittmann seems unaware of the Firefly in the post battle interview but says he was hit by 'pak'. There is no evidence that he suffered a track hit and track problems are only assumed (via post battle reconstruction that you seem determined to say is worthless) from the photos. It is even possible a sudden swerve or the heavy bombing could make the track jump and hang up on the sprocket. Anything is possible but you seem determined to find an outcome that awards the kill to anything but a Sherman
There is no need to go looking for other reasons as to why/how he was knocked out. We have all the information to be able to connect the dots and reach a pretty firm connection. I am not in the least bit bothered that I have not got HD footage of the entire engagement nor sworn statements from all the crew members of the tanks involved. I have enough to reconstruct the likely flow of actions. I can not see why you have a problem with this scenario when you have been content to give the credit to a phantom 6 pdr gun that you are unable to identify as to Unit or location. On a scale of 1 to 10 my scenario is an 8 whilst your is a -1.

If you want to continue down this path I can give you some more 'mystery' to mull over. Wittmann says that as he reached the main road and turned to drive left down the road to Villers he first knocked out 2 tanks to his right. There is only one knocked out tank in that location. The Firefly 'Blondie'. Despite the road being photograped and filmed (twice) there is no other tank. There is no reason why this 'second' tank would have been moved if it was knocked out as none of the others were. There is also the Tiger knocked out at the Tilly junction. Clearly this was firing down the same road as Wittmann and (probably) firing at the same targets as Wittmann. How many do you think should be knocked from Wittmann's tally and given to the other Tiger? Agte give a list of Tiger numbers for the tanks with Wittmann that day. The knocked out Tiger '231' was not on that list. Where did Tiger '231' come from? Instead of picking holes in the British accounts of Villers how about looking at the contradictions in the German version?

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#262

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Feb 2015, 10:50

After having consumed 6 pages ( triggered by the Carell version) of this thread, where do we stand? Lots of speculations (often contradictory), reconstructions from aerial photographs taken days after the action and of course the piece de resistance : the option c) suggested by me to Kingfish ... my ramming theory :D


However what are the facts quoted and established by the actual participants and primary researchers ?

8.55 AM The Tigers went into action

8.57 Wittmann engaged the Cromwell at the back of the British column

9 AM B Sqdrn, 4th CLY's first troops 1 & 2, are within sight of the Y crossing at the west end

9.16 Wittmann fails to spot the tank of Captain Pat Dyas hiding in a garden off the road and passes him

At around 9.26 things hot up at the Place Jeanne d'Arc.... Sergeant Lockwood´s Firefly and Wittmann´s Tiger engage each other, building hit and collapses. Sgt Moore hits the Tiger's visor. Small fire and some smoke on the Tiger's body but of no consequence

9.27 Wittmann reverses for some distance so as not to expose his thin rear armour and then turns, with his gun still turned west.

9.28 Captain Dyas, fired two shots at the Tiger, but to no effect. Wittmann's 88 knocks out the Cromwell. According to Taylor, Dyas may have "damaged the running gear" of the Tiger. However Lt Pearce suggests that the encounter happened while Wittmann was headed into town earlier.

9.29 AM Captain Dyas reported to CO A sqdrn, using Holloway`s wireless; helped by French girl as a guide, to scamper to B sqdrn

By 9.30, the lead elements of the Queens, carrier and anti-tank platoons reach VB.

Between 9.30 - 9.35 Wittmann´s Tiger is hit and stops...The crew starts firing off 88 and MG rounds to scare off any lurking Brits to prepare the ground for their bailing out and beating it.

9.35 Wittmann and crew abandon the tank.

9.45 Radio message logged in at XXX corps about Sgt Bray's Tiger kill near the Tilly junction.


Further material evidence we have here show:

1) Hit on the driver's visor of Tiger # 231 and Pics of the Tiger in front of the garment shop, showing no visible major damage. According to M Kenny :
Michael Kenny wrote:
See the superficial damage on the left..typically from a glancing blow from perhaps Sgt Lockwood's gun... but not serious enough to incapacitate. Then look at the tracks, driving sprocket et al. There is no way this Tiger would have travelled 600 yds in that condition ! It stopped where it was hit

......... What you call 'superficial damage' is the battered side skirts. This type of damage is common to Tigers and happens after collisions with other vehicles. It is not significant in any way.
( Oh dear God ! Why am i thinking of the blasphemous issue of "ramming" since there is no record of Wittmann colliding with any other vehicle .. :D )

We also learn from Wittmann that when he abandoned his tank he was fully expecting it to be recovered. Yet the tank left behind in front of the shop was apparently so badly damaged that it had to be given up for good..I cant imagine a scarce Tiger (less than 40 in Normandy) being scrapped..with the Germans in control of the area for days.. if it could at all be helped.


So...honestly and objectively, if one doesn't take a predetermined partisan view.. where does this leave us?

Ciao
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#263

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Feb 2015, 11:13

Michael Kenny wrote:

I can not see why you have a problem with this scenario when you have been content to give the credit to a phantom 6 pdr gun that you are unable to identify as to Unit or location. On a scale of 1 to 10 my scenario is an 8 whilst your is a -1

Michael Kenny wrote:...



Because Units had a set issue of guns. We know where the RB AT Platoon were located. It was outside Villers. The only other 6 pdrs would be the ones with the Infantry Brigade-which did not enter Villers until after Wittmann was knocked out.

According to Daniel Taylor ..

“By 0930 hrs, 1/7th Queens was stretched out on the Livry road....... whilst a few of the lead elements had reached the town.”, Daniel Taylor "Villers-Bocage through the lens", After the Battle, 2nd Edition, pg 43..

Same page ( 43) ..“Then came the order from 22nd Armoured Brigade for the carrier and anti-tank platoons to move off.”

One AT, as a part of the lead elements, with the carriers, from the Queen's can plug the missing link.. All questions are answered in one go ..

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#264

Post by Michael Kenny » 23 Feb 2015, 00:54

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:

According to Daniel Taylor ..

“By 0930 hrs, 1/7th Queens was stretched out on the Livry road....... whilst a few of the lead elements had reached the town.”, Daniel Taylor "Villers-Bocage through the lens", After the Battle, 2nd Edition, pg 43..

Same page ( 43) ..“Then came the order from 22nd Armoured Brigade for the carrier and anti-tank platoons to move off.”

One AT, as a part of the lead elements, with the carriers, from the Queen's can plug the missing link.. All questions are answered in one go ..
Here is what Dan says about this claim:

The contention that the Queen’s were in VB for the morning attack runs contrary to one significant primary source. Lt Col D Gordon, OC 1/7 Queen’s on 13/6, wrote a full report during the week after the battle on the action as it concerned the battalion. I believe it is in the 7AD War Diary. In it he states that the unit heard of the attack by Tigers on the head of the column whilst on the road approaching Villers, near Amaye. In response to this information, he sent the AT platoon forward in their carriers to help out and, since the road was snarled up with traffic, the rest of the battalion debussed and marched the remaining couple of miles to the town. The AT platoon complained that due to the traffic of C then B Squadron of the Sharpshooters they were delayed considerably in arriving in Villers. It is, therefore, easy to conclude that they could not have been there in the time frame described.


This is the distance from Amaye sur Seulles to Villers Bocage, 4km.
polo44_30.jpg
No one but you has a timeline that has Wittmann rattling around Villers for 40 minutes.
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote: 8.55 AM The Tigers went into action................9.35 Wittmann and crew abandon the tank

Michael Kenny
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#265

Post by Michael Kenny » 23 Feb 2015, 01:10

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:

We also learn from Wittmann that when he abandoned his tank he was fully expecting it to be recovered. Yet the tank left behind in front of the shop was apparently so badly damaged that it had to be given up for good..I cant imagine a scarce Tiger (less than 40 in Normandy) being scrapped..with the Germans in control of the area for days.. if it could at all be helped.
Yes during all this Wittmann had calmly decided the tank could be recoverd-or rather he hastily abandoned the 'intact' Tiger even though orders were to set off the demolition charges before leaving the tank. The exact nature of the damage to the Tiger is and will remain unknown. Suffice to say it was not a runner and the crew vacated it. Post battle all the Tigers were set alight and there is a later photo of the shop that is not blocked by a Tiger. The hulk was removed and used (with several other wrecks) as bait in an AA trap.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#266

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 Feb 2015, 05:12

Michael Kenny wrote:


No one but you has a timeline that has Wittmann rattling around Villers for 40 minutes.
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote: 8.55 AM The Tigers went into action................9.35 Wittmann and crew abandon the tank

So according to you how long did the total engagement last for Wittmann? Since the start time is not in doubt, when did his crew leave the Tiger and VB?

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#267

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 Feb 2015, 05:16

According to Taylor were or were not the lead elements of the Queens in VB by 9.30 ?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#268

Post by Michael Kenny » 23 Feb 2015, 06:31

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:According to Taylor were or were not the lead elements of the Queens in VB by 9.30 ?
The account by him I posted just above is his answer (in 2007) to the claim there were Infantry in Villers Bocage during Wittmann's attack. I can not see which bit you do not understand.
No 6 pdr in Villers whilst Wittmann was fleeing the scene.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#269

Post by Michael Kenny » 23 Feb 2015, 06:44

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:

So according to you how long did the total engagement last for Wittmann? Since the start time is not in doubt, when did his crew leave the Tiger and VB?
I have no idea. The radio logs give different times so the best you can say is around 09:00.
Wittmann drove some 1700 mtrs (including an allowance for his double back) which is just over a mile. An ordinary person walks at 3-5 mph so you could walk that far in 20 mins easily
The entire time Wittmann's Tiger was mobile in Villers is also unknown but can not be long, 10 mins perhaps?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#270

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 Feb 2015, 08:31

Michael Kenny wrote:
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:

So according to you how long did the total engagement last for Wittmann? Since the start time is not in doubt, when did his crew leave the Tiger and VB?
I have no idea. The radio logs give different times so the best you can say is around 09:00.
Wittmann drove some 1700 mtrs (including an allowance for his double back) which is just over a mile. An ordinary person walks at 3-5 mph so you could walk that far in 20 mins easily
The entire time Wittmann's Tiger was mobile in Villers is also unknown but can not be long, 10 mins perhaps?

Are you saying that Wittmann started the engagement at 8.57 .. by the roadside.. then did all the rest of it..en route to the town.. did his stuff inside town .. got shot up .. bailed and left .. all in 3 mins !? :D

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